A recent Bloomberg article warned that life insurance companies are taking on risky private equity deals with people's retirement money. In Episode 017, Nicky P passes along a question from the YouTube comments: how is this any kind of alternative if insurers still make their money in the markets? Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton walk through how life insurers are regulated and reserved, the difference between mutual and stock companies, and why private equity ownership is a fair concern.
“If there’s any risk within the portfolio of these companies, it’s an extremely small proportion of the total”
Viewers keep asking a fair question in the comments. If life insurance companies still make their money in the markets, how is what we do any different? Luke starts with a Bloomberg article, The Credit Hazard Lurking in Your Retirement Funds, and a YouTube video walking through it. The claim is that insurers are over-leveraged and making shady private equity deals with your retirement money. Luke's first reaction is that it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.
What We Covered
A small slice of the portfolio. Rob came to this work trying to get out of the market himself, so he wanted to know how these companies perform the way they do. His take on the article: it zooms in on a very small piece of some insurers' portfolios and draws a much bigger conclusion about the whole industry.
Scary charts. Luke says the video mostly points at charts and asks if they look scary. Big number bad, small number bad. It's easy to mislead with statistics when the audience doesn't know what they mean, and part of his job with clients is checking whether a chart really says what someone claims.
A premium is not a deposit. Luke calls the life insurance industry the single largest store of genuine wealth there is. Life insurers count as non-depository financial institutions, the no-defies from earlier episodes, because you don't make a deposit. You pay a premium for coverage. The fear comes in because many of these companies also run annuities and retirement products people count on.
“The reason it doesn’t work out is because they’re putting the risk back on you.”
Reserves, liquidity and stress testing. Rob explains that life insurers must hold large reserves and meet liquidity rules set by the states, all 50 of them, and run stress tests every year to show they can pay claims. Luke plays devil's advocate: isn't this just fractional reserve banking with a longer leash? Rob's answer is that the rules and the testing are built to prevent exactly that.
Mutual vs. stock companies. Nicky remembers a scene from The Big Short where a subsidiary's gains didn't matter because its parent lost everything. Could that happen to an insurer? Rob says it's possible with a stock company, where a parent can use its insurance subsidiary's assets to take risks elsewhere. The mutual companies we work with are run for their policyholders, so he sees it as highly unlikely there.
The private equity fear. Luke describes the private equity model: buyouts financed with as much as 80% debt, aggressive restructuring, bonuses paid out, and the original company left holding the loans. When people hear private equity attached to an insurer, that's the fear. A stock company also has to show growth quarter after quarter, because public shareholders want a rate of return.
“I have to buy their product in order to participate in their profitability.”
Owned by policyholders. A mutual company is owned by its policyholders. Luke and Rob both have policies with mutual companies, which makes them part owners, and when those companies are profitable they share it through dividends. Unlike buying Coca-Cola stock, you have to buy the product to take part. Rob adds that policyholders have voting rights, another layer of protection from an outside firm stepping in.
Big numbers, small percentages. Rob says the companies named in the video are large, and the positions called out were a very small share of their total assets. After years of artificially low interest rates, some insurers have looked for extra yield, but on a small portion of the portfolio. Luke compares it to a Walmart losing a truckload of product: it hurts, but it doesn't sink the company. Most of their assets sit in high-grade bonds.
When the risk is put back on you. Luke warns that some products marketed as life insurance, like certain indexed and variable products, put the market risk back on the policyholder. That's how a policy can fail if you live a long time. Rob's advice is to vet who you work with. As Nelson Nash put it, when you know what's going on, you will know what to do.
Key Takeaway
The question in the comments was a good one, and it's worth asking any agent. Ask whether the company is mutual or stock, who owns it, and who carries the risk in the product they're showing you. Luke's advice is to look for a realistic path, not the biggest number the illustration software can produce. That's how we work with clients at Perfect Spiral Capital.
Key Moments
[1:00] The Credit Hazard Lurking in Your Retirement Funds
[5:00] A Premium Is Not a Deposit
[6:00] Reserves, Liquidity and Stress Testing
[7:00] Isn't This Fractional Reserve Banking?
[13:00] Mutual vs. Stock Companies
[14:00] The Private Equity Fear
[17:00] Owned by Policyholders
[20:00] Big Numbers, Small Percentages
[23:00] When the Risk Is Put Back on You
[24:00] Vet Who You Work With
“Are you guys pulling the wool over my eyes here?”
Related Episodes
Episode 012: What Are NDFIs, and Could They Cause the Next 2008? Non-Depository Lenders, Bank Exposure and Bail-Ins
Episode 040: The Five Roles of Banking Nobody Taught You (And How to Become the Bank Owner)
Episode 044: Nvidia's $500 Billion Ask: Why BlackRock, Apollo and Goldman Sachs Are Bankrolling Their Own Customer's Demand
Want the full conversation, including Rob on mutual vs. stock companies? Listen to the full episode and grab the free toolkit at PerfectSpiralCapital.com/podcast.
FAQ
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Life insurance companies in the US are regulated by the states, which set reserve and liquidity requirements and require regular testing to show a company can pay its claims. Most of their assets are held in high-grade bonds. In Episode 017, Rob Brayton and Luke Tatum explain why they see the risks in recent headlines as a small share of insurers' portfolios. Strength still varies by company, so check a company's ratings and ownership.
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A stock company is owned by shareholders and has to deliver returns to them, usually measured quarter by quarter. A mutual company is owned by its policyholders, and participating policyholders can share in profits through dividends when the company declares them. Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton work with mutual companies for that reason.
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Private equity firms often buy companies with a lot of borrowed money, sometimes up to 80% debt, then restructure and pay themselves out. When a firm like that owns an insurer, people worry the insurer's assets will be used to chase higher returns. Luke Tatum explains why that's a fair concern, and why ownership matters when you choose a company.
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No. When you pay a premium, you are paying for coverage, not depositing money in an account. That's part of why life insurers count as non-depository financial institutions. With properly designed whole life insurance, part of what you pay builds contractually guaranteed cash value that you can borrow against.
Show full transcript
Between The Lies: Episode 017 Transcript
How Are We Any Kind of Alternative? [0:00]
Nicky P: We keep getting asked in the YouTube comments, how are we any type of alternative when life insurance companies still make their money off of investments? Welcome to the Between The Lies Podcast, your weekly lesson on how to approach an uncertain world with positivity and balance. I'm Nicky P here with my good friends and money brains.
Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton from Perfect Spiral Capital. As they help us navigate in a world of, trust me bro, economics, stick around to the end of the video for their free toolkit and be sure to like and subscribe if you enjoy what we do. So gentlemen, what gives, are you doing the trust me bro now too?
Luke Tatum: You know, I have to say, Nick, it takes some explanation, it takes a little nuance. We gotta actually want to have an answer and dig in a little bit to get to the real, the real answers to these kind of questions, you know? But. But no, I think we have all the facts to back it up. And if anything, the kind of subject matter we're getting into this week is another episode of Trust Me, bro.
Like it's, you know, point out something bad, record a YouTube video about it, and that's kind of where we end up. So. I was trying to think of a topic for the week. You know, we have a group chat where we talk about these things, and I watched a video from OX Talks where he's discussing a recent Bloomberg article entitled The Credit Hazard Lurking In Your Retirement Funds and.
The Credit Hazard Lurking in Your Retirement Funds [1:00]
Luke Tatum: Basically the idea is that life insurance companies are over leveraged and hyper risky and, you know, they're managing your retirement funds, so you should look out because these guys are doing shady private equity deals, and they're gonna, they're gonna, you know, end up squandering your retirement funds.
You're not gonna be able to retire because of these risky, unregulated financiers, at the insurance companies. And. To me, kind of a pot calling the kettle black sort of a thing a little bit, but I mean, we'll get into it. So, Rob, what's your first take on this?
A Small Slice of the Portfolio [2:00]
Rob Brayton: Yeah, it's definitely an area that I will say that as somebody who was trying to get out of the market.
In a lot of respects myself, not that the market's bad inherently by any means, but it was one of the things where I was like, well, how is this? How are these companies able to perform like they do and be outside the market, so to speak? But the reality is once you understand how they're structured.
And take the time to really dig in below, you know, kind of lift up the hood and look at how things work. You get a much better handle on why these companies do perform so well. And it's not a situation where it's extremely risky by any means. If there's any risk within the portfolio of these companies, it's an extremely small proportion of the total investment portfolio.
So I think that's the thing that is probably being highlighted here. At least in the, in watching the article as well or the video as well. It certainly seemed to me that we're looking at this little tiny piece of the overall portfolio and then making a much bigger assumption about it.
Across the industry.
Scary Charts [3:00]
Luke Tatum: Yeah, I mean, the video in question is really just kind of going through the article and saying, look at these charts. Don't those charts look scary? And I mean, we've been playing that game in the financial services world, you know, as an industry broadly, not us specifically for, you know, it's big number is bad, you know, look at this chart.
Small number is bad. Look at this chart. You know, like, whatever. Just pick your poison. It's very easy to manipulate. Statistics lie with statistics. If you, if, especially if your audience. Doesn't know what any of that stuff means. Right? And so, that's one of the things of course you and I have to do with clients is say, well, you know, does that actually mean what they said that it means, you know, and kind of look behind the curtain, whatnot.
The Largest Store of Genuine Wealth [4:00]
Luke Tatum: But I mean, we're talking about the life insurance industry. You and I are licensed life insurance agents, right? And so we're talking about. The single largest store of genuine wealth that there is. And obviously, if that were to somehow tank and create a, you know, it's, we're not talking about ripple effects.
Like that's the core, that's the thing to which all ripples must return, you know, if that fails, it's over.
Rob Brayton: Yeah. It's a hugely significant portion of the total assets in the United States and. I mean, and, and if like, certainly just don't take our word for it. Like go out and, and dig into it. It is there.
Luke Tatum: Yeah. We have a great, you know, report that we can link in the, description talking about this. You know, this is 2023 data, but we're talking about. You know, billions and billions and billions of dollars, trillions of dollars that are, that are out there. And you can look, I mean, it's relatively easy to find data on this.
A Premium Is Not a Deposit [5:00]
Luke Tatum: You know, how much of the total insurance industry even is in life insurance. We've talked in this show about no-defies the, non-depository financial institutions. And one of those things is a life insurance company, right? Because you don't, you don't make a deposit. When you pay a life insurance premium, you pay a premium.
You are paying for a service, you're paying for coverage on something, right? The life of a person in the case of life insurance. And so, but when these companies are also managing the pensions and retirement accounts and things like that. That people are counting on. This is where the kind of fear aspect comes in, I think, right?
Oh my gosh, what if next month your check doesn't come, you know, for your annuity, let's say, these greedy guys and their, you know, backroom deals are gonna jeopardize your ability to live after you quit working. So what's wrong with that?
Rob Brayton: Well, obviously there would be a lot wrong with it if it were true.
I think that's the part that the average person simply doesn't understand. In, I like the lay person. I don't expect them to understand it either, right? I don't expect somebody to just go out there and say, Hey, I wanna understand how the entire financial services world works. It's, I get it. I don't necessarily want to go do that all the time either, but.
Reserves, Liquidity and Stress Testing [6:00]
Rob Brayton: It's important for me to you and I to be informed for our clients as much as possible. So that being said, one of the things that I think is important to understand is what the reserves are structured like for insurance companies and the level of testing that's required for them. And when I say insurance companies, I'm talking specifically life insurance companies because those are the ones that.
Actually have annuities and some of these investment products. But, that level of reserve requirement is huge in terms of their total asset portfolio. And then the level of liquidity that's required is also state regulated, by all 50 states. All these companies must adhere to these structures.
And then there's also significant levels of pressure testing that must take place on an annual basis to validate that there is a level of, liquidity in order to pay the claims, in order to take care of their clients. And that's the thing that I think most people don't understand or see at that level, underneath the hood, so to speak.
Isn't This Fractional Reserve Banking? [7:00]
Luke Tatum: Yeah. Well, so let me play devil's advocate for a second because, you know, Nick normally will ask the devil's advocate questions for us. You and I are on the same team, but I know exactly what he is gonna ask and what that is okay. But these insurance companies are, they're taking in premiums.
They don't have to pay it all out at one time. Doesn't that give them this. Unlimited leash. Isn't this just fractional reserve banking? Isn't this, you know, just a case where well, you know, nobody's, not everybody's gonna pass away. At the same time, thinking as a life insurance company, not everybody's gonna have a car insurance claim at the same time, thinking as a car insurance company, so.
No big deal, right? We don't really, we can cook our books and nobody's ever gonna know, you know, 'cause this is the, like, cartoon version of how business works that people kind of have in their mind. Oftentimes, like if you put a billion dollar figure into a conversation, then all of a sudden it's about greedy rich people that have no sensibilities for the common man, right?
So. You know what's wrong with maybe that angle on this? I mean, you're talking about state regulation. Okay, well, the state regulators need to step up their game, Rob. They need to get in here and they need to fix these greedy insurance companies and prevent 'em from taking advantage of people.
Right? Isn't that what needs to happen here?
AIG and the Great Depression [9:00]
Rob Brayton: Well, that's what I think a lot of people think probably should happen, but I think I'd like to use an example just to show like how resilient these companies are, because I think this one will. Be a big shock to a lot of people. And one of them, and most people will be very surprised to hear this, is that during 2008, during the great recession, even AIG's life insurance business and its subsidiaries required zero bailout money, it was completely solvent during that time. [Editor's note: AIG's life insurance companies stayed solvent, but the securities lending program run through them did receive Federal Reserve support in 2008 through Maiden Lane II.] So this is like. The poster child for, you know, life insurance or insurance companies failing. Right. But the life insurance side of AIG was completely intact. So what does that tell you? It tells you that it passed the, adhere to a much higher standard than what the MBS side of the business did, at that time.
You know, does that excuse how it was structured and all the stuff that went down, whatever, like you can have your own opinions about it. And did they do some risky stuff on that side of the business? Sure. I mean there, it wouldn't have failed if they didn't or weren't involved with it, but that, that went way beyond just that company.
There's a lot of other, groups that were involved in that whole scenario. But, I think that statistic alone, which I thought was really just very telling about the strength of how these companies have to be structured when you consider. A potential economic failure point. One other point I'll lay out there another statistic too that I think is really huge is during the Great Depression, where you had 4,000 of 25,000 banks fail, which was roughly 16% of all banks failed at that time, only 5% of the life insurance companies went insolvent at that time. [Editor's note: About 9,000 US banks failed from 1930 to 1933.] So. That's a much, much. So that was 20 companies over that timeframe, right? That where they went potentially insolvent. So that's a big difference when you consider what, how big of an issue that was in that period of history. So it, I think that's the part that a lot of, a lot of people aren't seeing from the outside in is that there is a lot more to it than just.
Company A did this, company B did this. It's really risky, the whole space, let's throw it all out because it's probably gonna go belly up.
A Scene From The Big Short [11:00]
Nicky P: Well, and, and that brings to mind what I'm thinking of is like, as I think back, Rob, you know, watched The Big Short recently, it's a fun movie. A lot of interesting things happen there.
But I'm remembering back specifically where you have the one guy, is it Mark. Mark is talking to like his boss at the bank that he works at, or the investment company, they're a subsidiary ever. And he's like, oh, well, you know, like we made out X amount of money and so how much over exposure is there?
And it's what he's getting at is he's talking to his guys and trying to explain to them, well yeah, we made all this money, but it doesn't matter because like our company. Lost into the overage and because we're part of that company like. Maybe our money becomes their money and we lost everything.
Doesn't matter that we're actually the think keeping, gonna float if that's all the capital that they have. How are these insurance companies not like doing the same thing as that? Are there instances where they are, they are and you guys just don't utilize those types of companies? What's the delineator there?
Mutual vs. Stock Companies [13:00]
Rob Brayton: Yeah, I mean, good question. Right? So I think in those situations, what. What we typically are working with, you know, speaking specific to Perfect Spiral Capital, and that within the infinite banking space are mutual life insurance companies and they're. They're not going to be out there doing a lot of highly risky, highly, leveraged situations and that, and that's because of the way that they have to be structured for the benefit of their policy holders and then making due on the claims and so forth, and what they're required.
Where I think you see more of that potential would be with a stock owned type insurance company. Where they're at, the insurance company portfolio side of that, business. So if the insurance company is a subsidiary of a larger stock company, they could be leveraging that insurance company out to go do other risky investments because the insurance company has to have a specific amount of reserves.
It has to be structured in a certain way, but that that, stock company could go out and then leverage. Those assets in a different way in order to get more exposure within the market. So from that perspective, to answer Nick, your question Nick, I think could it happen in some sectors of the market?
Sure. Would it happen with the companies that we are typically working with? I think it's highly unlikely if not zero, just because of the way they're, they have to fulfill requirements for their, for their policy holders who are. Subsequently owners of the company.
The Private Equity Fear [14:00]
Luke Tatum: You know, I think too, it's worth bringing up at this point, the whole private equity thing, right?
Because we do have companies out there, we were talking pre-show, you know, about Athene and, and some of these other guys, the, you know, Apollo Group and all that. The idea, and I've talked at length about this elsewhere, but the idea is that they will use a lot of debt. To get involved with the company saying, oh, we got these experts from the industry.
We're gonna come in, we're gonna fix everything up. We're gonna modif, modernize the infrastructure. We're gonna lay off, people that shouldn't be here, that are paid too much. You know, we're gonna totally shake up the company and we're gonna reinvent the whole thing, kind of ground up. Whatever needs to be done, hyper aggressive and they're gonna change up the company structure, change up the pay structure, whatever, and that.
Is going to create all this additional profit margin and then that additional profit margin is gonna pay off all the loans they use to do the whole thing, right? But these deals can be up to 80%. Leveraged, you know, meaning that only 20% of the money was actually there in the first place. And so, these companies will come in, they'll pay themselves bonuses.
They'll leave the original company on the hook for the loans that they took to pay themselves bonuses instead of the, you know, let's say Apollo instead of Apollo Group having the loan for this crazy deal they're doing, you know, the insurance company has the loan. And so if it doesn't work out. They don't really care.
They're there for a quick buck if they can make it, but they don't have to care if they're left leaving the bill with some other people. Right. And so that sort of problem, I think is the fear, right? When you say PE, when you say private equity, that is the fear is that somebody's gonna come in and change everything that you used to love about a company, leave you with the bill.
Make a quick buck and just, you'll never see 'em again. Right. And there's nothing you can do about it. 'cause it was all legal. And so a stock company, what is the problem with a stock company, right? In my book, the problem with a stock company is it's public facing. You've got all these public filing requirements and you have to provide a shareholder value, right?
Quarter After Quarter [17:00]
Luke Tatum: It's not. Long-term oriented in the same way. You have to go, okay, well, Q1, we made all this money. Q2, we're still making money, and it's even more Q3. Oh man, we're making even more money. It's et cetera, right? Quarter after quarter, year after year, you gotta keep showing that you're growing the business.
It's not sufficient. To maintain, you have to grow because investors, right, especially public investors or institutional investors, they want a rate of return. It's the obsession with the rate of return. A stock company must to do this. That's what it's for. A stock company exists to create shareholder profits, right?
Owned by Policyholders [17:00]
Luke Tatum: That's what it's, but a mutually owned company. Is owned by the people who have policies. So I own a couple of life insurance companies. Rob, you own a life insurance company or two, right? We have policies like we don't, we're not a hundred percent owners. We have policies with these companies and because we have policies with these companies when they make a profit, which is.
You know, hundreds of years sometimes, right? A hundred plus years. For a lot of these companies, they are, they're gonna share that profitability with their owners, just like a stock company would, but in this case. The stock is only available to people who actually participate in that process, right? I don't have to like Coca-Cola to buy Coca-Cola stock.
I have to, like the insurance company I buy from, you know, meaning I have to put my money where my mouth is. I have to buy their product in order to participate in their profitability. Right. So it's a, it's a more of a closed system and I don't know about you, but I think that kind of insulates the process a little bit.
You know, it gives you a layer of protection from a PE firm or whatever coming in and, meddling, for lack of a better term.
Voting Rights [19:00]
Rob Brayton: Well, for sure. Right? Because the other side of being an owner is you have voting rights, so. In order for something like that to even take place, all of the owners have to vote in unison for something like that to happen.
So that be, again, that situation becomes highly unlikely, especially when the company's highly profitable as the companies that we've worked with are. Extremely profitable over the last 130 plus years or whatever it is. So, you know, I think, from that perspective, it puts them in a completely different ballpark than a lot of these other ones that are.
Likely being discussed as a part of this video, which to your point about the, private equity firms, I think that is more likely where some of the thought processes certainly coming from for the premise of the video. At the same time, some of the names that were utilized were from, companies that are pretty large.
Big Numbers, Small Percentages [20:00]
Rob Brayton: The portion of their assets that were mentioned were extremely small. So I think that that was a little bit misleading because they are big numbers. You know, some of the, one of the companies was, that was mentioned, you, they, I think they had called out somewhere around $8 billion. Well, it's a lot.
Sounds like a lot of money, but in reality, that was only about. 0.25% of that company's total asset portfolio. So there, it seems like a lot, but in reality, they're playing with this really small portion to try and generate some return. Right. We've been in an artificially low interest rate environment for a long time, so these insurance companies are trying to make yield on some of those investments.
But again, it's a really small portion.
Managing Long-Term Risk [21:00]
Luke Tatum: Right, right. It's, I mean, to your point, you know, the. Any company, any company that's established that's been around, can survive a total loss on a quarter of a percent of their, one of their lines of business. You know what I mean? That's just how it is. You know, even extremely thin margin companies like a grocery store chain, like a Walmart or something, if they have an entire truckload of product for one of their locations that just.
Explodes. They're not gonna go outta business. It's gonna hurt them. That's not a good thing, but it's not going to instantly tank the business because they're very long term oriented and. Even more so an insurance company, right? Because that's the name of the game. It's the management of long-term risk.
Don't you think that they probably have some ideas around how to manage the long-term risk of their own operation, you know, and so, and especially because. We're talking about, oh my gosh, these crazy leveraged, extremely risky things that these companies are gonna do. But 65, 70, 75% of their total assets are long-term rated, you know, AAA rated corporate bonds.
You know, it's not risky. They're investment grade, you know, the class one and two, bonds. Could some of those sometimes not work out? I mean, okay, sure. But even in like a 2008 type situation, you know, a stat I bring up to clients all the time is 2008 was the most profitable year in history for a lot of these insurance companies, right?
Because people were like, oh my gosh, the equity market's crazy. I don't wanna play the stock market. This is, this is nuts. I gotta get outta this. And so that fear that that. I gotta get out of this. Drove people to safe assets. You know, what the safest place to put money in with an insurance company.
And that, I think that still remains true today. You know, it's just crazy. It's crazy to see this kind of like it. Okay, one additional thing though. There are plenty of insurance company, out companies out there that are just going to bat day after day, pumping out marketing material, pumping out social media posts, talking about indexed products and variable products that are maybe tied to life insurance.
When the Risk Is Put Back on You [23:00]
Luke Tatum: You know, we've done a lot of talking about that, and I know we're doing a lot of vocabulary on this show, but you know, it's entirely possible for your life insurance policy to go belly up. If you live a long time, if you know, are choosing the wrong products and those sorts of things, but that doesn't mean the insurance company's taking the risk.
The reason it doesn't work out is because they're putting the risk back on you. You know, that's been in the news lately, and so it's easy to conflate this, you know, this, oh my gosh, insurance companies are terrible. They take all this premium and you don't even get a death benefit when you pass away.
Well, what kind of insurance did you get? Well, what did you actually sign up for? If it's a policy where you. Keep all the risk then I'm sorry. You know.
Rob Brayton: Well, and that's why it's really critical to actually vet out who you wanna work with. You know, that, like who are the people that are gonna take the time to walk you through the process, help you understand what each one of these types of products does.
Vet Who You Work With [24:00]
Rob Brayton: And what are the advantages and potential disadvantages for you, the consumer? That's a big part about what we do. It's all about education, and when you're informed, you know what to do as a customer. I mean, Nelson Nash said that many times. You know, when you know what's going on, you will know what to do.
And that's a big part about. How we help our clients is to walk them through that process, help them understand exactly what they want, you know, understand their situation, their goals, their dreams, and then help them identify the product that's gonna make that work for them.
Luke Tatum: Yeah. What's a, what's a realistic path?
Final Thoughts and Free Toolkit [25:00]
Luke Tatum: Instead of, let me show you the biggest number I can possibly crank out of the illustration software, right? Like, I'm not naming any names, you know, but people are out there doing that stuff and it's very shady. Nick, you got anything else? Any other thoughts for us? Final words here.
Nicky P: No, I know I've been quiet this episode, but like, it's something I feel is important for the people that are following us.
'cause it's come more than once where they're kind of like we were saying, they're offering me something and, you know, and you know, Rob shared some stuff in the group where I'm kind of looking at like all these, I'm starting to ask the question again. I said, well, how. How is this really a different product?
Are we, are you guys pulling the wool over my eyes here? So I'm glad we could kind of touch base on that today and enlighten me and the audience. So what do you gotta say to take us outta here, gentlemen?
Luke Tatum: Yeah. Thanks again for joining us. You know, this week's episode between the Lies. Thanks so much for, understanding as we took a couple of weeks off there around Thanksgiving holiday.
We may have a. Light episode around Christmas time. We put a lot of value on family. All of us on this podcast do. So, just trying to make things work and make sure we can deliver these episodes, you know, with that in mind. But, you know, if you watch this full episode, then of course you're interested in the future of money.
If you would like to get a free toolkit that will help you with the future of your money, then you can get a copy of my Amazon bestselling book and two free video courses all just in exchange for your email address. You can get that perfectspiralcapital.com/podcast. We hope you'll check it out, and we hope you'll join us again next week.
For another episode. Thank you very much.
