In the first IBC IRL episode, Brian Pritchard talks with listener Brendan Seburn about how the infinite banking concept works in a real household budget. Brendan explains how he came to think of his whole life policy as a savings account with a death benefit, why he replaced an older universal life policy, and how policy loans covered an emergency tree removal and let him turn in a car lease and buy a used minivan outright. Luke Tatum joins to explain what happens to the death benefit when you borrow.
“A savings account with a death benefit added onto it.”
IBC IRL is our series about how the infinite banking concept works for real people. Brian Pritchard hosts, and our first guest is Brendan Seburn, a longtime listener and client. I join to fill in a few details. Brendan doesn't have a giant policy, and that's exactly why his story is worth hearing.
What We Covered
How Brendan found IBC. Brendan first heard me on the Tom Woods Show, then worked through Bob Murphy and Carlos Lara's podcast until the pieces clicked. It sounded almost too good to be true at first, so he kept listening until he understood how it works.
A savings account with a death benefit. That's how Brendan explains his policy to his family. It's somewhere to put savings he can reach, that also does something for him, which a regular bank savings account doesn't.
From universal life to whole life. Brendan already had a universal life policy from years earlier. Once he understood the difference, he replaced it with a whole life policy from a mutual company that works the way he wanted.
“Your need for financing is statistically much, much greater than your need for protection.”
Starting small. With a lot still in flux in his budget, Brendan started with a modest premium. A policy can be designed with room to put in more when the budget allows.
A tree that had to come down. Several companies told Brendan a large tree in his yard could snap in the next storm. A policy loan covered the removal before it could damage the house.
Ending the car lease. Brendan calls leasing the worst financial decision he's made. When the lease was ending, a policy loan against his remaining cash value let him turn in the car and buy a used minivan outright.
“There’s still a death benefit. It’s not as though there’s nothing.”
Financing vs. protection. Brian points to an idea that stuck with him: your need for financing is much greater than your need for protection. A tree, a car or a repair is something every family runs into.
The death benefit is still there. If something happened while loans are outstanding, the insurance company subtracts the loan balance from the death benefit and pays the rest. Brendan's family is still protected while he uses his cash value.
Owning the car outright. Because he paid with a policy loan, there's no lien on the car. Brendan likes to own the things he has, and he repays the loan on a schedule that fits his budget. Policy loan terms vary by carrier.
Key Takeaway
You don't need a big policy to benefit from the infinite banking concept. Brendan used a modest whole life policy as a savings tool, borrowed against it when real life showed up, and kept his family's death benefit in place the whole time. Start where you are, and build from there.
Key Moments
[3:00] Hearing Luke on the Tom Woods Show
[4:00] Bob Murphy and Carlos Lara's Podcast
[6:00] A Savings Account With a Death Benefit
[9:00] From Universal Life to Whole Life
[11:00] Using the Cash Value
[12:00] A Tree That Had to Come Down
[13:00] Ending the Car Lease
[14:00] Financing vs. Protection
[17:00] The Death Benefit Is Still There
[19:00] Owning the Car Outright
“I like to be in possession of my possessions.”
Related Episodes
Episode 019: What Can You Use a Policy Loan For? How We Used Ours in 2025
Episode 020: What Will We Use Policy Loans For in 2026? Cars, Business Costs and Thinking Generations Ahead
IBC IRL Episode 2: From $475 in the Negative to Owning a Bank: One Investor's Infinite Banking Real Estate Playbook
Want the full conversation, including how Brendan plans to use his policy in the future? Listen to the full episode and grab the free toolkit at PerfectSpiralCapital.com/podcast.
FAQ
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Yes. In IBC IRL 001, Brendan Seburn used a policy loan against his whole life cash value to buy a used minivan outright, with no lien on the car. You repay the loan on a schedule you choose. Terms vary by carrier.
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If you pass away with a loan outstanding, the insurance company subtracts the loan balance from the death benefit and pays the rest to your beneficiaries. As Luke Tatum puts it, there's still a death benefit.
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Brendan Seburn started with a universal life policy and replaced it with whole life from a mutual company once he learned the difference. Whole life has contractual cash value growth, which is what the infinite banking concept relies on.
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No. Brendan Seburn started with a modest premium while his budget was in flux, and his cash value still covered a tree removal and a car purchase. A policy can be designed with room to add more later.
Show full transcript
Between The Lies: IBC IRL, Episode 1 Transcript
Meet Brendan Seburn [0:00]
Brian Pritchard: Welcome back. This is, sort of an offshoot, here with the Perfect Spiral Capital podcast series to explore some ways that, the infinite banking concept, becoming your own banker, has worked for real people in the world. So we have a real person with us. How about that? Brendan Seburn, is joining us today.
Brendan, how are you?
Brendan Seburn: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on. I- I've been listening to the podcast since you guys started, and I enjoy it every time it comes out, so pleasure to be here.
Brian Pritchard: Well, that's, excellent to hear. And, and, where are you joining us, from in the world today?
Brendan Seburn: I live in Springfield, Missouri.
I'm from Colorado, but we moved here a couple years ago with my wife just after we had our first baby.
Brian Pritchard: Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. And, on the professional side, you know what I mean? What... How do you spend your days?
Brendan Seburn: I work, I work in elections, so it's elections technology.
It's not like a political side of it. I just work with computers, and I click buttons all day, and I tell people how to, how to use a piece of software, and that's about it.
Brian Pritchard: Okay. Got it. Got it. Your business or are you an employee of a company that makes this tool?
Brendan Seburn: Yeah. Yeah, I'm an employee. Been an employee my whole time, and I worked at a larger company and then a medium company, and now I'm with a pretty small company that is only about 15 people or so.
And it's, honestly, it's the best I've been at so far. I think the small company aspect really suits me.
Brian Pritchard: Love it. Love it. Love it. Do you have designs to, explore entrepreneurial, you know, ventures in the business space? Or you love being a contributor and, and getting to, you know, separate from work at the end of the day?
Brendan Seburn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, honestly, I... Yeah, I do. As I've gotten a little bit older and, and a little bit more experienced working, I realize what a, in some ways, what a privilege it is to be an employee because you don't have to worry about so many things, you know? It's like I don't, I don't even know what I don't have to worry about.
So, you know, I've gotten a little bit of a glimpse into it at this company 'cause the, my boss is the owner so, you know, we're on, you know, good relations. We talk about stuff, so I've got to see into his world a little bit. And I'm like, "Man, I'm..." You know, some days I'm certain glad that to be the guy lower on the totem pole.
You know, aspirations, not right now, no. No, I'm pretty focused on my family. I've got, two kids right now, a third on the way this summer, so I'll have three kids under three years old. That's enough for me for right now. I don't, I'm not worried about the entrepreneurial, you know, aspirations, the career aspect.
I just want that to be, I want that to be constant, you know, 'cause I've got so many other things changing.
Brian Pritchard: I love it. I love it. I appreciate you painting that picture for me. And, and so as we sit today with a third child on the way and, and that's sort of the lay of the land in terms of the, some of the work-life balance, you know, ingredients high level, we're gonna rewind back and, and...
So, so you moved, you moved to Missouri, you were saying, after the first kid. When did the becoming your own banker concept first, you know, come into your world?
Hearing Luke on the Tom Woods Show [3:00]
Brendan Seburn: Yeah. So, so I grew up in Colorado. We got married, we had our first kid, and then I was realizing, oh, Colorado's too expensive for us to make it out here.
So we... I got a job offer. We considered, you know, moving out here. That's ultimately how it played out. In the meantime, the one podcast that I've listened to since I was about 19 or so, is Tom Woods' podcast, and I heard our man Luke Tatum on there, as a guest. And I forget exactly when that was.
I think it was, it was probably around 2022, maybe somewhere in there. I think you've been on twice, Luke, if I, if I recall correctly. Yeah.
Luke Tatum: Yep, that's right. But the first time was early '23. Yeah. So you're dead on timing. Yep.
Brendan Seburn: Okay. Yeah. Good. My memory serves me. So yeah, I heard you the first time and, and my interest was piqued, but I didn't really act on it then.
I was just like, "Oh, okay, that's interesting. I'll think about that and, you know, look into it in the future." so fast-forward a little bit, it was probably about 20- middle of 2023, and I think I heard you on again or maybe I heard, some, in some form it kinda crossed my path again, right? So I started to think about it and I listened to your episode, that first one, listened to that first one again, and then I started to...
I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna dive into this a little bit." at the time, you know, the book, the time I have available to read is pretty limited, so I have to be very... I have to choose, w- you know, choose, pick and choose what I wanna read. So at the time I was focused on the books that were already on my bookshelf.
Bob Murphy and Carlos Lara's Podcast [4:00]
Brendan Seburn: I didn't wanna buy a new book. So I was like, "Okay, what other, what other podcasts can I listen to?" 'cause I, for my job, I do s- a fair amount of driving throughout the state, so I got time on my hands to just sit, listen while I drive And I listened to, the podcast that Bob Murphy was on with...
Luke, do you-- remind me of the other gentleman's name.
Luke Tatum: Oh, Carlos Lara.
Brendan Seburn: There we go. Yes, sir. Yeah, so I found their podcast, and I think, you know, it's fairly limited. I, you know, I think they had, like, 60 episodes or something like that. So I kinda went through the list of it and picked out the ones that seemed like I'd, you know, would hit with me the most.
Listened to a bunch of those, just about all of them. And then it was kinda clicking to me. You know, as I listened to, you know, five episodes or so, I'm like, "I don't know, this sounds... I trust, I trust the name of Bob Murphy." I've never met him, you know, but I know of him. I know the circles that he's in.
I trust those circles, so I'm like, "I don't think this guy would scam me, but this sounds almost too good to be true. You know, something sounds off here. I don't really understand it." So I kept listening to more episodes, and I feel like every couple of episodes there's a little piece of information that just kinda clicked into place, you know?
And like every... By the end of it, I had a better understanding of what it's supposed to be. You know, it's not... The, then I, then I turn around and I'm like, "Okay, well, how can I explain this to my wife? 'Cause she doesn't have time to listen to 60 episodes of this podcast. She doesn't have time to read a long book.
A Savings Account With a Death Benefit [6:00]
Brendan Seburn: How can I explain this to her to where she would, or her interest would be piqued at least?" You know? So I thought maybe the easiest way to explain it, 'cause it's kind of how my brain started to understand it in a simple form, is, you know, my whole life policy I feel like is a, is a savings account With a death benefit added onto it.
And maybe I heard that, maybe I heard it, heard it worded that way or in a similar way on one of those podcasts. You know, you listen to so many things, it's like it's kind of jumbled up. I don't... Unfortunately, I can't, I don't remember specifics all the time. But something through those podcasts, you know, kind of clicked with me.
I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about it like that." 'cause then you'd hear the comparisons. Well, you should, you should just buy term life insurance and invest the difference. I think that's kind of like the standard, you know, rebuttal to whole life. And it's like, okay, well, you know, I agree with that if my end goal is to maximize the investment aspect of it.
That's not exactly what I'm trying to do here with the whole life policy. So I- I... At the time, I was just, I want, I want something to do... I want somewhere to put my savings, basically, but I wanna be able to access it, but I also want it to work for me a little bit. And looking at a normal savings account, you know, just at a normal bank, that, you know, that does not, you know, do anything for me.
Brian Pritchard: So is the investment side for you, Brendan, I don't mean to interrupt, but I wanted to touch on a point before we moved away from it completely, which is i- if you're saying, well, I'm not thinking of this as being my investment vehicle. So, you do have other investment vehicles then, yes?
Brendan Seburn: No, not really.
Honestly, this is, this is my primary one, because, you know, at the same time that I was having an income that I could invest, I was also becoming smitten, getting married, having kids. So it, you know, it kind of my ability to, invest with disposable income, you know, quickly diminished. So it's...
Yeah, I don't really have any other meaningful investments. This is kind of the primary thing that I'm, that I'm attached to.
Brian Pritchard: No, and that's not a criticism. It was more just trying to gain clarity around you again defined it as a savings account with a death benefit attached to it, right? So even at that moment that you're starting it... And forgive me on the ti- I guess, so if you first hear the podcast as recently as, like, three-ish years ago, you're already a father at that point, twice? Yeah? By the time you're hearing this, like, you have two kids?
Brendan Seburn: I had one kid at that time.
Brian Pritchard: Fair enough. Okay. With a second one apparently soon to follow, and now a third one on the way. So, so how did you approach the split between if it's a savings account with a death benefit and you have this new burgeoning family, how did you approach... You know, how much of it you were gonna use from a banking perspective, and how much of it to leave alone or preserve as, you know, worst case scenario death benefit now that you are responsible for these other people?
From Universal Life to Whole Life [9:00]
Brendan Seburn: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so at the time, you know, once I got in contact with Luke and we were talking about, you know... Well, let me back up just slightly. So I did have a whole life policy. It was a universal whole life policy. And I got that started up when I was, I think, 18 through a financial advisor.
I think he was, friend of the family, basically. So I actually had that universal whole life policy up to this point when I started getting in contact with Luke. Because as he, you know, as I listened to him, as I listened to that other podcast, I was like, "Okay, I think I'm understanding that there's a difference here, you know, between universal whole life and the mutual whole life.
So I need to, I need to get this situation corrected to be, usable in the way that I want it to be usable." So then I s- just got in contact with Luke. And, you know, at the time it was, we had just moved to Missouri. You know, we were, we were still, you know, I think we were probably about six months in.
Starting Small [10:00]
Brendan Seburn: But we're still... You know, I'm looking at my monthly budget, and I still, I feel like I needed a baseline, you know? Th- there were too many things that were still in flux. Wasn't exactly sure how much I had to work with. So I started contacting Luke and, you know, he said, "Well, you can, you know, you can invest as much as y- or, you know, your policy premium can be as little as you need or as much as you need."
So my current, monthly policy premium, I think, is only about $80, some- something like that. I have the ability to do more with the, SPUR but, you know, some months it's like I just gotta do the bare minimum 'cause I need the rest of that for the monthly budget for all the diapers and the wipes, right?
Brian Pritchard: Yeah, no doubt. So, I guess back to un- un- unpacking that question. At the moment that, that you're... All right, so I wanna pivot into the day-to-day usage of it, right? Some of the ways that you're using it currently. But I guess I still want to include the overlay of that question, which is the balance between how you're using it and wanting to, I assume, correct me if I'm wrong, preserve the Risk, you know, pr- make sure that there's something there for your kids should tragedy strike.
You know what I mean? That sort of thing. How are you balancing that, and in what ways are you primarily using it and, and hope to use it?
Using the Cash Value [11:00]
Brendan Seburn: Yeah. Well, you know, r- at this specific time, unfortunately I'm... Well, I guess it's a double-sided coin. Fortunately and unfortunately, I've pretty much consumed the whole cash value.
A Tree That Had to Come Down [12:00]
Brendan Seburn: I had to-- We had a large maple tree in the front of our yard, that I got evaluated, towards the beginning of the year, I think, and I thought it was a healthy tree. I didn't really know. And I had multiple quotes, multiple companies tell me, "You gotta take it out. It's gonna snap. There's multiple, you know, splits in it."
And the winds that we get around here are pretty severe, this time of year. So I need to get that taken down pretty quick, to avoid any damage to the house. So to do that, I took out a policy loan from the, from the policy. It was, you know, wasn't too big. It was, it was okay. Sat on that for a little bit, and then, recently, most recently, we had a 2023 Honda Pilot that I had leased with my wife.
Horrible decision. The worst financial decision I've ever made. Up till that point, I was-- I thought I was doing, you know, pretty decent. At least I wasn't making any stupid decisions, you know? That was a bad one that I got talked into it by a salesman and yeah, that was, that was stupid. I learned that the hard way.
Ending the Car Lease [13:00]
Brendan Seburn: So that lease was expiring, this year and, you know, went to the dealership. They said basically if you end your lease early, it'll be a little bit cheaper for you. So that lit a fire under my, under my bottom. So unfortunately, everything, you know, my wife is due in the summer, needed to buy this new car.
I had to turn in that, you know, that leased car with a question mark how much they would charge me to turn it in. They couldn't really provide a good, you know, estimate. So just a lot of, you know, upcoming price tags that I didn't know how to deal with. Thank God I had the cash value in the policy still.
Buying a Used Minivan [13:00]
Brendan Seburn: I think I had about $15,000 at that point. O-overall my policy is pretty small, you know. I know that. But it was big enough for me to cover everything I needed at that point in time. So I did take out a policy loan basically for the rest of the cash remainder, cash value. And then I was able to purchase a used minivan 'cause that's our life right now.
It's actually really nice. It's nicer than the, than the Honda Pilot was because we got a high-tier trim on the, on the minivan. So yeah, I mean, to try to circle back to your question there is no balance, basically. I unfortunately have had to use it, to its, you know, utmost ability to cover our necessities in the moment.
And I knew that when, you know, when I was talking to Luke and, and getting it, you know, opened up and whatnot, I kind of knew that. I knew that this would be... Right now I need it to be a short to medium term, vehicle to help me out. Long term, I am, I am thinking about the long term, but it's in the back of my mind.
You know, I can't, I can't be thinking about it too much 'cause I gotta focus on the short to medium as I see it.
Financing vs. Protection [14:00]
Brian Pritchard: No, man, you know, my curiosity isn't meant as a value judgment. My I'm 43, my kids are 16 and 21. I actually didn't start even a term policy for myself, right? So, you know, the first decade of each of their lives had tragedy struck, whoops, sorry.
You know what I'm saying? Like, broadly speaking, I guess I could justify it in part by saying, you know, I am, fortunate to have a wonderful family support network around, where I'd like to sit there and say, "Well, while this isn't perfect, you know, protection planning," you sort of go, yeah, am I concerned that my loved ones would be, like, thrown to the wolves in my absence?
It's like, no. You know, but ideally, yeah, it feels good to, you know, try to, try to get that stuff in place. So all that to say, there is this notion, right? That really stuck out to me in terms of it being exposed through Luke as well to these concepts for the first time, that, your need for financing is statistically much, much greater than your need for protection, right?
I've always had kind of an aversion to insurance of any kind, because, like, it's so negative to even call it that. It's like, you know, the whole industry is based around, like... I'm like, I don't want to spend my life walking around worried about all these worst case scenarios and stuff like that.
On the other side of that, when stuff goes wrong, it's really, really cool when you're, when you're like, "Aha, I planned ahead. I have this thing." But you're also experiencing that. It's like, for you to pass away tragically would be a huge tragedy, right? That to me is... It's not that tragedies don't strike, but it's like statistically, whatever you want to call it, not all that likely.
The other stuff that you mentioned, the tree falling, like needing to pay off that car, those are, roadblocks in the in the travels of the average family that everybody's gonna have. Unexpected young death, that's a curveball, right? And so they have products that account for it, and yeah, great.
Like, we can't, it's hard to anticipate and have insurance for, and you know what I mean? For every possible outcome, right? And indeed for the age that, that you're at, it's sort of like, yeah, is the tragedy, death, you know, scenario. Yeah. Anyway, all that to say no. The... When you say no, unfortunately, I'm going like, "No, I hear you in a perfect world," but it's not meant as being judgy.
I think the things that you're doing with it are spot on, and it sounds like you went in with your eyes open, so it's not something that's bothering you. You know what I'm saying? So, no, no, no, I think that that's, that's, very cool.
The Death Benefit Is Still There [17:00]
Luke Tatum: Brian, if I can jump in too before we, before we pivot to your next question.
I mean, the fact is that, you know, and, and Brendan, I'm not gonna share exact numbers or whatever, but let's just say, you know, you've got in the neighborhood of 200,000 or so worth of death benefit for your policy, right? And so in the worst case, right, what's gonna happen is the insurance company does a subtraction problem, right?
We've talked about this. You know, you know how it works, right? But it's like, okay, if it's 200,000 and you've got 17 out in policy loans, they just go, "What's 200 minus 17,000?" And then, "Here's the remainder," right? They... There's still a death benefit. It's not as though there's nothing. And so, you know, Brian's question is how do you maintain this balance?
And, you know, you're not, you're not thinking about that, and rightfully so, right? You have things to do, and you need to use your policy. But if something did happen, you know, you're still way, way, way on the side of providing for your family, even considering everything else. So I just, I just love that.
Owning the Car Outright [19:00]
Brendan Seburn: And I think that was part of my peace of mind, too. You know, I had sent you a text, you know, after I-- after all this, you know, stuff, the car stuff happened. I sent you a text just to thank you for, you know... 'Cause this was the first time that I've been able to use the policy loan as it's meant to be used.
So I was... You know, as I'm getting everything prepared, you know, I'm going to find a car to purchase, and I realized, I sat there for a second, I'm like, "Wait a second. If I buy this, I... You know, using my policy loan, I own the car outright. There's no lien on the car like there normally would with a, with an auto loan."
And I was like, "Man, that's really nice." You know, I don't like... I like to be in possession of my possessions. You know, I like to own the things that I have. So just that little fact was nice. And then also, you know, to your point, yeah, I mean, I'm s- on, you know, on a, on its face, I feel like I'm spending all of my money by taking out this policy loan, but there is still the death benefit, you know?
So I'm not... I'm still covered in that way. Yeah, I know it's... In the grand scheme of things, you know, let's say 200,000 isn't a whole lot for my wife. I understand that, but it's something. You know? It's the best I can do right now, and for that, I'm happy, and I feel content
Brian Pritchard: Very much so. I love it.
Plans for the Future [20:00]
Brian Pritchard: And, and, I guess where I wanted to wrap up is, let's say in the, in the realm of fantasy, right? Of saying as you think about, the, you know, the future, what are some of the ways that you anticipate and hope to be able to use this? You know, are there projects, that you have in mind long-term that you sort of have earmarked for, use of this, strategy?
Brendan Seburn: Yeah. You know, I don't have anything specific in mind. There's a few thing... Well, a storm shelter would be nice, with, the crazy storms that we get around here. Thankfully our specific hou- you know, housing areas is, skips the storms, frequently, but there's always a threat. Something I'm not used to coming from Colorado is these crazy tornadoes.
But, you know, so it's things like that. Really anything that would be out of the normal monthly budget, something that has a high price tag that I can't, you know, necessarily afford at that specific time, but something that I, that I need. You know, so I don't intend to use it frivolously. I don't intend to purchase anything that I don't, in some way, absolutely need.
You know, and eventually I would, I'm hopeful that, you know, once the financial strain month to month is, eased up a little bit, you know, then I can contribute more to my policy. Ideally, I could open up a policy on my wife and on my kids. You know, on the kids I can pass it on to them, you know, once they, once they grow up a little bit.
So I'm hopeful for the, that far future to have it balloon, you know, to really expand and, and... So in the short term, you know, let's say 10, 10 to 20 years, you know, I might be still kind of in that, that smaller-est side but, you know, I think maybe 30 years down the line it could be a pretty, a pretty awesome, collection of policies.
A Conceptual Legacy [22:00]
Brian Pritchard: You know, and that, that conceptual... It's a weird way to put it. I w- I wanted just to finish the thought to say conceptual legacy. What does that mean? It means taking this concept and building a legacy inside your family unit, right? So that, that conceptual legacy i- idea I think is really attractive of, finding something that you can pass along, to empower your children as they're growing and, the ways that they'll get to even learn through osmosis to some degree, right?
'Cause there will be situations that come up where this will be the solution and, yeah, it'll I suppose lend itself to Introducing that dialogue. Be like, "You know, son, let me tell you about IBC." It'll be beautiful.
Brendan Seburn: There will absolutely come a time for that, yeah.
Wrapping Up [22:00]
Brian Pritchard: Very cool. Brendan, I really appreciate you taking some time to talk with us today and, and, and share your experience.
So, you know, I look forward to circling back with you, in the future and, and, sort of like Babe Ruth, you know, will call a shot in baseball. That's why I like to ask about, you know, the stuff that you're gonna do down the line. So I'd like to catch up with you in, you know, a decade or so and be like, "yeah, so you have those policies in place for the kids, and those are growing," and, you know.
I don't know. It's fun to check in on the timeline. So I hope you'll revisit this conversation and, check in with us in the future as well.
Brendan Seburn: Absolutely. Yes. Thank you so much for having me on and, and I appreciate talking to you guys.
Luke Tatum: Thanks, Brendan. It's been a blast catching up with you as always, and, I suppose we'll be talking again soon.
You and I are in pretty regular contact, and it's always fun. Yes, sir. So I appreciate you so much.
