In Episode 020, Nicky P, Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton look ahead to what they plan to use policy loans for in 2026: income taxes, growing a business, a new car and an eventual family van. The conversation turns to something bigger, passing on wealth and know-how so it lasts past the third generation, and why a simple system beats a complicated one.
“It’s nice to know that it’s there for the things that we need it for.”
Last episode looked back at how we used policy loans in 2025. Nicky admits we could barely wait to talk about what's next, so this one looks forward. The plans are practical, but the conversation keeps coming back to the long view: how to set up the next generation so the system keeps working after you're gone.
What We Covered
Taxes and growing the team. Luke will again use policy loans to handle uneven income tax bills. As the founder of Perfect Spiral Capital, he also plans to use them to float the costs of growing the team and possibly switching to a new CRM, so the business doesn't feel those costs all at once.
Rob's plans. Rob is planning to launch his own podcast to go with his book and other projects, and he's reading up on a couple of passive income ideas he may put into play later in the year. His family's van also needs replacing, in 2026 or 2027.
A down payment on a car. Nicky needs a new car and expects most of his down payment to come from a policy loan.
“I know what my cost of capital is.”
Knowing your cost of capital. Luke's point about using a policy loan for a big purchase: he knows his cost of capital and sets his own repayment plan. Policy loans typically don't come with a fixed schedule, so if an emergency means skipping a payment, or several, he makes that call himself. Interest keeps accruing on the loan, so a plan still matters. It's also a good chance to teach the next generation how money works.
Wealth gone by the third generation. Nicky is struck by how quickly some families lose their wealth. Rob cites the common statistic that without a proper structure it's usually gone by the third generation. One of Nelson Nash's rules is to think long range, and Nicky brings up seventh generation thinking.
A library for the next generation. Rob and his brother have been building home libraries, and they talked about how to make sure their kids actually read the books. Rob's idea is to record a short video for each book explaining why it matters.
“It’s so simple. Yet it works extremely well”
Don't hand the next generation a headache. Luke sees multigenerational family banking as powerful, but he warns that estate plans can become so complex that heirs resent them and walk away. Nicky's friend is in court after a badly drafted will. Luke has seen family disputes run for a decade, plans that were never updated, and trusts that may not be the right kind.
Wealth taxes. Nicky notes that wealth taxes and taxes on unrealized gains keep coming up in the news. His concern is that with so many people's 401(k)s tied to the same system, taking away the incentive to store wealth would hurt everyone, including people who are far from rich.
Simple works. Rob says what we do is simple, and people overcomplicate it because they assume complicated means better. Luke calls it the guru syndrome, everyone looking for a secret life hack. A whole life policy has layers, and clients can tell him to stop when they've heard enough, but the basics are easy. His advice to anyone selling anything: just tell the truth about what it is and what it isn't.
Key Takeaway
A plan for the year is good. A plan your grandchildren can understand is better. We use policy loans for everyday costs and big purchases alike, and the habit of running money through a system you control is something you can teach. If you want to start building that kind of plan for your family, that's what we do with clients at Perfect Spiral Capital.
Key Moments
[1:00] Rob's Plans: A Podcast and a New Van
[3:00] Joining the Car Club
[4:00] Knowing Your Cost of Capital
[5:00] Wealth Gone by the Third Generation
[6:00] A Library for the Next Generation
[7:00] Multigenerational Family Banking
[9:00] When Estate Planning Goes Wrong
[11:00] Wealth Taxes
[13:00] Simple Doesn't Mean It Doesn't Work
[14:00] The Guru Syndrome
“Well, to say mathematically speaking, complexity is bad for everyone.”
Related Episodes
Episode 019: What Can You Use a Policy Loan For? How We Used Ours in 2025
Episode 040: The Five Roles of Banking Nobody Taught You (And How to Become the Bank Owner)
Episode 042: Berkshire Hathaway Is Sitting on $397 Billion in Cash, Here's What That Says About "Hit $100K" Advice
Want the full conversation, including Rob's idea for a family library? Listen to the full episode and grab the free toolkit at PerfectSpiralCapital.com/podcast.
FAQ
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Typically not. Most whole life policy loans don't have a fixed repayment schedule, though terms vary by carrier and policy. Interest accrues, and any balance still owed when the insured person dies is generally subtracted from the death benefit. Luke Tatum still sets his own repayment plan so the money is available to use again, but he has the flexibility to pause if something comes up.
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Generally, yes. Policy loans can typically be used for any purpose, including a car or a down payment. In Episode 020, Nicky P plans to use one for most of the down payment on his next car, then repay the loan on his own terms.
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A common statistic says family wealth is usually gone by the third generation when there’s no structure in place. Rob Brayton and Luke Tatum see two causes: the next generation isn’t taught how to handle money, and estate plans become so complex that heirs resent them. Teaching, simplicity and long-range thinking are their answer.
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With properly designed whole life insurance, cash value grows on a contractually guaranteed basis during your lifetime and the death benefit passes to your beneficiaries. Families can use policies and policy loans to finance things among themselves, which Luke Tatum calls multigenerational family banking. Like any plan, it works best when the next generation understands it.
Show full transcript
Between The Lies: Episode 020 Transcript
How Are You Putting IBC to Work This Year? [0:00]
Nicky P: Last episode, we sat down and talked policy loans in 2025. The truth is we could barely contain ourselves as we started almost immediately looking to what we're gonna do with policy loans this coming year. Welcome to the Between The Lies Podcast, your weekly lesson on how to approach an uncertain world with positivity and balance.
I'm Nicky P here with my good friends and money brains, Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton from Perfect Spiral Capital, as they help us navigate the snares and pitfalls in a world of trust me bro economics. Stick around till the end of the video for their free toolkit and be sure to like and subscribe if you enjoy the video.
Gentlemen, how are you putting IBC to work for you this year?
Luke Tatum: Nick, I appreciate you. I got all kinds of plans. I could easily ramble and monopolize the whole conversation for a bit here, but, big thing that's on my mind. Recap of last episode to some extent is, you know, managing the uneven nature of income taxes.
Taxes and Growing the Team [1:00]
Luke Tatum: You know, probably have a tax bill due here pretty quick and you know, I'll be using it for that. But in addition, you know, since Perfect Spiral Capital is my team, I put this whole thing together and got it started. I'm. Using this to potentially float some costs associated with increasing the size of our team.
Switching to a new tool. We were just talking right before we started recording. We might switch CRMs, client relationship managers, right? There's those kinds of things that allow you to maybe do a little bit more creative stuff as a business owner, and, and not have to necessarily, feel the hit.
Of the costs all upfront. So that's very exciting for me. But, it's certainly not the only thing I could speak to. Rob, what's on your mind this year?
Rob's Plans: A Podcast and a New Van [1:00]
Rob Brayton: I have, quite a few things planned, I guess. One is kind of exciting that I'm looking at, launching my own podcast to kind of supplement, complement my book and a few other initiatives I have going on.
So that's pretty exciting stuff. But I also have, I've really been digging into a couple of, passive income opportunities that I think might be something to really take a closer look at. So I'm reading a couple of books on some of those things, and then looking to put some of that into play potentially later on this year.
So outside of that, I know we're gonna be due for an. We have to replace, our van at some point. That may happen this year. That might be, I should say that may happen in 26. It may go to 27. So we have a lot of, a lot of different stuff kind of coming up that we're thinking about and how we want to put it to play.
But, yeah, we have, a lot of exciting stuff that we can use it for.
A Down Payment on a Car [3:00]
Nicky P: It's funny he mentioned vehicles. 'cause that's the first thing I'm thinking about is I really need to get a new car. And that's probably gonna be where most of my down payment comes from, is pulling out a policy loan, start me out there so that when that's invested I'll, you know, take a bit to fill back up.
But. It's nice to know that it's there for the things that we need it for.
Joining the Car Club [3:00]
Luke Tatum: I mean, I guess I'm gonna join in on the club here as far as vehicles too, because, my nephew's gonna be driving soon and I think we're probably gonna be buying that car using a policy loan. So, you know, that kinda. Helps us make the right decision when it comes to budget.
Something that I think people don't really grasp immediately when it comes to using policy loans from a life insurance policy. If this is somehow your first episode of the podcast, we're talking about, you know, loaning against the cash value of a dividend paying whole life insurance policy, right? Or that's a policy loan.
Knowing Your Cost of Capital [4:00]
Luke Tatum: And so we are, one of the advantages of doing that for me, looking at buying a car for a new driver in the household, right, is to say, I know what my cost of capital is. It's not. The same thing as getting a loan from a car dealership and then saying, Hey, if you make lots of extra payments, you can reduce the amount of interest over the life of this loan.
No, I can think proactively and go, okay, I'm going to make this amount of payments over this amount of time and that's going to look like this. Right? But if for some reason there's some kind of emergency, I can't make a payment. Or even five or six or eight or 20 payments, it's fine, right? But I get to make those decisions in the moment and I, it's just awesome.
It's awesome. It's gonna be a really good teaching opportunity too, because part of this is instructing the next generation, and the next generation. And the next generation, right? You have to keep this going so that you don't end up with. A very, very successful generation, and then another generation that doesn't know anything about money.
Right? I think a lot of people have made those mistakes over the, over the decades.
Wealth Gone by the Third Generation [5:00]
Nicky P: Well, I can't remember the exact number, but it's always surprising the number of millionaires that, that how quickly they lose the wealth of the family. And it gets squandered and people just don't know how to handle that money.
'cause they didn't, they're the ones that earned it themselves and eventually they just spend it away.
Rob Brayton: Yeah. I think it's the statistic is usually by the third generation, it's completely gone if you didn't have a proper structure in place. So, I mean that's kind of scary, but I mean, that's really what, you know, the whole infinite banking concept is all about, like one of Nelson's rules think long range, right?
So long range should be, and I and Nick, you've brought this up before, I think of thinking way out. So think past that. Third generation
Nicky P: Jack Spirko is like seven generations.
Rob Brayton: Exactly. And like that takes a really different level of thinking to what are the processes, what are the important things to teach, to bring it through to that next level.
A Library for the Next Generation [6:00]
Rob Brayton: Actually on that topic, as just having a conversation with my brother, during the holidays and we were talking about, 'cause we were talking about some of the books that he has, been reading and that he has in his little library that he started and I'm starting my own. And, we were talking about how to make sure that.
Someday our kids actually read them, right? So, one of the ideas that I've had is to have each book record a video with it so that they can see, here's this book, here's why you should read it, and like, use that down the line. And obviously we could write in it and stuff too, but, you know, I think it's a great way to be able to help people see why it's important to take.
And invest a little bit of time now for what it does for people in the long run. And, obviously that ties into policy loans because that's part of how we use that process and how we help create the system so that they can enjoy that in future generations.
Multigenerational Family Banking [7:00]
Luke Tatum: Yeah, I, you know, I don't wanna get totally off the rails on this.
I didn't know we were gonna end up in this territory on this episode, of course, but, you know, the idea. Of like working within your family to finance things and creating like a large multi-generational banking system using the infinite banking concept, that is so powerful. And the numbers get very rapidly, way so large, like so unbelievably large that it's hard to even comprehend how big they're, but you don't want to.
Hand someone next generation, two generations out, like a headache. Right? You don't want them to be resentful, you know, sometimes estate planning and, and things of that kind can become so onerous and so complex and so like, I don't wanna do this, basically, you know, and, and it kind of creates that sort of like resistance.
Like, well I, you know, I don't care about the family wealth. I'm gonna just. Go over here and do my own thing. And it's like you are trying to make the next generation's lives easier, but are you actually making it way, way, way more difficult? Right. So how do you, how do you make that appealing without it just being this, you know, I don't know, bad B movie about.
You know, the proceeds of a will. You know what I'm saying? Well,
When Estate Planning Goes Wrong [9:00]
Nicky P: More than anything, I'm surprised you used the word sometimes in there. 'cause I don't know anyone who's ever had to deal with estate planning and estate work, but it's never been a huge pain in the butt. One of my good friends, my band members, friends of Brian as well, he, was, had a horrible time.
'cause he picked up the wrong lawyer, screwed up the will, and now he's trying to go through and like unscrew the will 'cause after his mom just died. You know this problem after problem, everything's gonna be held up in court because it gotta dispute things. Now that should have been easily handled and taken care of just off of silly little things.
You're like, how did this guy not know to do this stuff? And now. I like, we just wanted everything to move easily, and now it's not, it'll never move easily, ever again. It's screwed for the entire time. And, and he, you could tell, like he would really rather just wash his hands of the whole prospect because it is such a pain in his butt right now.
Luke Tatum: I mean, I've been close to some situations that, are, you know, multi-year. You know, decade plus long affairs, trying to sort things out with, you know, siblings in conflict, that sort of thing. And then, you know, less outside of my immediate family circle. There's also been plenty of issues I've seen, like with client families and stuff like that, with, you know, what happens to the family home, right?
How does it get divided? Well, there's no, there's no plan or there was a plan but it wasn't done right Or, you know, there was a plan, but it was made 25 years ago and it hasn't been updated. Just everything in trusts, but are the trusts even the correct type of trust? You know, that's confusing territory.
And so it's like, again, thi this is kind of what I speak to. Talking about like this huge instruction manual that you need to leave and like, wow, I don't wanna deal with that. I'll just leave. You know, it's not worth the quarter million dollars, the half million dollars to deal with this, you know? And so then it doesn't end up going the way you planned, right?
The whole point is to make it. Better again, for the next generation. But are you actually doing that? Are you just making a gigantic nightmare? It's,
Wealth Taxes [11:00]
Nicky P: It's funny that this is moving to the territory. We're not gonna talk about it today, but we're, I think this week we'll have to, a future episode on it is, it's constantly in the news these days is wealth taxes.
And I had some people really, really going. They're blaming the tech people for, they're like saying, oh, you think that they, people don't understand the economics of it, but like they do. The economics of it are they want you to be poor and. Well, I grasp that, but I don't think these people realize how intertwined every element of this is.
And it would not only make those people poor, it would make the entire system not work if you're to start implementing wealth taxes. Because just every, everyone's 401(k)s, they're all invested in the same system. Everything is in there. So the minute you take away the. Incentive to store wealth and start, then it all runs away.
And where does it run to? I couldn't tell you, but it's certainly not propping up the businesses in our country.
Luke Tatum: Right. I mean, unrealized capital gains taxes, have been in the news again lately. Things of that kind. So I, this is supposed to be a positive episode where we're talking about what we're gonna do this coming year.
One of the reasons that we can have that conversation is that we're not in some of the traditional things. Right. Maybe that's a good enough way to sort of get back on track with the conversation. It's,
Nicky P: Well, I thought we were on track 'cause we're talking about seven generation thinking now.
We're worried about, we're so, we're so on the ball. We're worried about people 140 years out.
Simple Doesn't Mean It Doesn't Work [13:00]
Rob Brayton: I think it also ties in pretty well though, in that. I think where you were going with it, Luke, was we're somewhat insulated against that stuff because we're not, we're not dealing in all those other areas, so to speak.
It's a lot simpler, and not only simple doesn't mean that it doesn't work well though. And I think a lot of times people misconstrue those things where they automatically assume complicated means it's gonna be successful, but that's just not the case in what we do. It's so simple. Yet it works extremely well and it.
It's caused people to over complicate it because it is so simple because they don't grasp it. And I mean, we, I think we've all been guilty of that when we first got into it, but,
Nicky P: Well, to say mathematically speaking, complexity is bad for everyone. All complex systems are, they're bound to degrade on themselves.
It's just how math works, that that will inevitably happen. So it's funny that anyone thinking complex would ever mean good for you. It just means, you know,
The Guru Syndrome [14:00]
Luke Tatum: It's the, it's the guru syndrome, right? Of the modern era, right? Everyone wants to become a social media influencer where they're smarter than everybody else.
They know the secret tool, the secret sauce, the secret, you know, the life hack where they can. One up everybody else and, and get you the cutting edge and like, and a whole life insurance policy is not that complicated. I mean, it's just really not, there's stuff to it. There's nuance. There's layers and layers.
And I always tell clients, you know, Hey, you can tell me to stop anytime because there is a level at which you will no longer care. To continue to peel back and, and, you know, look further into how this works mechanically. But the basis of what we're doing is super duper easy and simple. If you can unwind a few of these really complex things and that you've been taught, you have to know.
Right. So, I just, you know, the whole guru thing, I just have to say it's like. Just tell the truth, right? It's this, do you want that? It's not this, if you're seeking this will not help you, right? Like what it is, what it isn't. Is that what you want?
Nicky P: Right on. Well, why don't one of you gentlemen tell these people where they can learn more about all this and start the new year out with a solid plan for the future.
Outro and Free Toolkit [16:00]
Luke Tatum: Yeah, you bet. You bet. So we're just kinda, you know. Bouncing a bunch of ideas around to kick the year off, which, you know, I'm having a great time doing of course. But, you can learn a heck of a lot more about the infinite banking concept. If that's something that you are interested in learning more about, you got a free toolkit over on our website, it's perfectspiralcapital.com/podcast and that is a free.
Toolkit, just all we ask for is your email address. It's gonna get you a free copy of my best selling Amazon book, between the Lies and then also two free video courses, kind of getting into some more of those, deeper details to help you really get a firm grasp on what we're doing, why we're doing it.
And how it can totally transform your financial life. So if that sounds good to you, head on over to that website again, it's perfectspiralcapital.com/podcast. We'll see in the next episode.
