Rob Brayton just got back from the annual Nelson Nash Institute Think Tank, where the theme was thinking long range. In Episode 026, Luke Tatum, Nicky P and Rob talk about planning two to five generations out instead of just to retirement, what Becoming Your Own Banker still teaches, why a financial tool isn't good or evil, and why knowing your cost of capital changes how you look at every opportunity.
“A tool is not good or evil.”
Rob just got back from the Nelson Nash Institute's annual Think Tank. I missed it this year, which would have been my fifth, so I wanted to hear everything. The theme was thinking long range, and that idea runs through this whole conversation.
What We Covered
Think long range. Thinking long range is the first of Nelson Nash's principles, and it was the theme of this year's Think Tank. Rob was there for the second time and says it's unlike any other financial conference he's been to.
Retirement isn't long range. Most financial planning looks 20 or 30 years out, to retirement. Rob talks about planning two, three, even five generations out, and what you can put in place now so your family is better off long after you're gone.
Becoming Your Own Banker. I reread Nelson's book once or twice a year and still get something new from it. One idea we keep coming back to is building up the 10% of income that flows through your hands and keeping it working for you.
“If you accumulate a lot of capital in one place, opportunities are going to seek that out.”
Top-down vs. bottom-up. Rob shares a talk from David Stearns, Nelson's son-in-law, on the difference between the Keynesian top-down view of the economy and the Austrian bottom-up view. Infinite banking is a bottom-up idea: it starts with your own household.
A tool isn't good or evil. People sometimes hear that the wealthy use life insurance and assume it must be a scheme. A tool is not good or evil. What matters is how you use it.
Banks use it too. Rob notes that banks themselves hold large amounts of cash value life insurance on their own balance sheets. It isn't just for wealthy elites.
“It’s an evolution of thinking.”
Capital attracts opportunity. As Nelson would say, if you accumulate a lot of capital in one place, opportunities come looking for it.
Know your cost of capital. When you borrow against your policy, you know your loan rate. That gives you a clear number to weigh any opportunity against, compared with what it costs to pull $10,000 out of a savings account earning almost nothing.
Mindset is the foundation. Paying yourself first starts with how you think about money. Nicky and I go back to our old podcasting days on the Liberty Network, and Nicky jokes about watching me become a finance guy.
Key Takeaway
Thinking long range changes the questions you ask. Instead of what you need at 65, it becomes what you can build that lasts for generations. That's the planning we do with clients at Perfect Spiral Capital, using properly designed whole life insurance as the foundation. And if you're a client who'd like to attend the Think Tank, let us know.
Key Moments
[1:27] Think Long Range
[2:14] Unlike Any Other Financial Conference
[4:08] Retirement Isn't Long Range
[5:02] Five Generations Out
[6:19] Becoming Your Own Banker
[8:35] Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up
[10:19] A Tool Isn't Good or Evil
[12:37] Banks Use It Too
[15:21] Know Your Cost of Capital
[16:50] Mindset Is the Foundation
“The mindset is really the foundation.”
Related Episodes
Episode 020: What Will We Use Policy Loans For in 2026? Cars, Business Costs and Thinking Generations Ahead
Episode 040: The Five Roles of Banking Nobody Taught You (And How to Become the Bank Owner)
Episode 019: What Can You Use a Policy Loan For? How We Used Ours in 2025
Want the full conversation, including Rob on David Stearns' talk about top-down and bottom-up thinking? Listen to the full episode and grab the free toolkit at PerfectSpiralCapital.com/podcast.
FAQ
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It's an annual gathering put on by the Nelson Nash Institute for people who practice and teach the infinite banking concept. Rob Brayton attended in 2026, his second time, and the theme was thinking long range, the first of Nelson Nash's principles.
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Conventional planning usually looks 20 or 30 years out, to retirement. Rob Brayton and Luke Tatum mean something longer: two, three or five generations out, and what you can put in place today so your family is better off long after you're gone.
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Nelson Nash created the infinite banking concept and wrote the book Becoming Your Own Banker. Luke Tatum rereads it once or twice a year. Nash passed away several years ago, and the Nelson Nash Institute carries on his work.
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When you borrow against a properly designed whole life policy, you know your loan rate, so you have a clear number to weigh any opportunity against. Luke Tatum compares that with the hidden cost of pulling money out of a savings account that earns almost nothing.
Show full transcript
Between The Lies: Episode 026 Transcript
Nicky P: This past weekend, Rob got the opportunity to finance nerd out with many fellow IBC practitioners at the yearly Nelson Nash Institute think tank. Must be nice to spend a weekend in a world looking to plan long term. Welcome to the Between The Lies Podcast, your weekly lesson on how to approach an uncertain world with positivity and balance. I'm Nicky P here with my good friends and money brains Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton from Perfect Spiral Capital, as they help us navigate the snares and pitfalls in a world of “trust-me-bro” economics.
Stick around till the end of the video for their free toolkit, and be sure to like and subscribe if you enjoy the video. Rob, let us sit on the weekend.
The Nelson Nash Institute Think Tank [0:43]
Rob Brayton: Yeah. Wow. It was, really tremendous. I think anytime you get an opportunity to spend time with a lot of like minded people, it is uplifting, fulfilling in so many different ways. And I think more importantly is the level of learning that that you're able to take in from people who have been at fire that much farther down the road than yourself.
And then at the same time, you have an opportunity to help continue to pour into people that maybe are just starting out, too. So it was a great experience. But for those who are maybe not familiar with what we're talking about, we are talking about the annual think tank that the Nelson Nash Institute puts on for all the infinite banking concept practitioners.
Think Long Range [1:27]
Rob Brayton: And I was able to attend that this year. And, for the second time, and it was excellent. The theme of this year's conference was thinking long range and really just taking it back to some of the core roots of the infinite banking concept. And if we if anybody is familiar with, some of Nelson's core principles about the infinite banking concept, the number one rule he has is to think long range.
So there's a lot about there, a lot of our speakers, we're all focused around those types of things. And we had a lot of different, little breakouts that all tied into that theme. So it was a great, great experience. Luke, I know you're familiar as well, but any feedback you would have there.
Unlike Any Other Financial Conference [2:14]
Luke Tatum: Yeah. Gosh, I that's this is my first year to miss since I've become a practitioner. I believe this is would have been my fifth, think tank. I think I've gone to four in the past and so, you know, it's always a wonderful opportunity. You have different speakers, different practitioners, people that maybe have been in the finance world for 20 or 30 or even 40 or more years.
Right. Talking about some of these things and so, you know, but it's always geared both at the experience and at the new kind of, as you alluded to. And so, you know, a lot of this is directly relevant for clients. You know, this is the kind of thing where people that we work with even might be interested in going to future think tanks sometimes.
Right. Depends on how big of a nerd they are, I guess. But, you know, it's fun and it's so different from any other, you know, financial advisor saying conference, think tank, whatever that you might go to because everyone in the room is so focused on that, you know, next generation, next generation, you know, five generations out kind of planning where, you know, I hate to say it, but a lot of financial guys, you know, I've done skits and jokes about this for a long time now.
They're just looking to make a quick buck, and they're happy to be conspicuously absent whenever your investments are going down. Right. So this is a this is a completely different animal. And, I'm excited to see some of the replays and some of these things in our, practitioner portal when we get the opportunity for that.
But, you know, it's always an incredible time and it's very grounding to go to these.
Retirement Isn't Long Range [4:08]
Rob Brayton: You know, it definitely was and and continues to be any time I have the opportunity to be involved with some of the, long running members in our, in our group. But a couple of things that I had for takeaways was that one of the areas that in you were alluding to it with a financial advisors, but like conventional financial advice, a lot of times when they're talking long range, they're getting you to think, a couple of different ways.
One is just for your retirement in a lot of cases, which is 20, 46, 30 years out, you know, it's not significant. And when we are talking about long range, like you also alluded to, we're thinking two, three, five generations, maybe more in the future. And in what does that look like? What are the steps I can take today.
Five Generations Out [5:02]
Rob Brayton: And this is a big thing that we try to work with a lot of our clients, is to start thinking differently. And it's how we rethink our thinking on that front of what would it look like for you to feel super excited in the future, for your future generations that say you know, five generations out? What would what could what do you think you could do today that might influence that?
And that's a lot of what we try to help people to think and understand around. And to be honest, we didn't. You and I didn't start here. Either. It's a it's an evolution of thinking. So it's a, it's a changing, you know, identification of a different mindset that somebody kind of wears when you start thinking differently that way.
And this whole process, the infinite banking concept, gives us that opportunity to think that that long range in and allow us to be able to put things in place that that makes that actually happen. Right. So I think that part was really exciting to sit down and hear from some of these individuals that have been doing this a long time, that have a lot of great experience, but also we're able to just directly hear from Nelson, through many of the people that that work directly with them in that way.
Becoming Your Own Banker [6:19]
Luke Tatum: Yeah. And anyone who hasn't, you know, maybe they have worked with us, but they've never really gotten around to, like, doing a deep dive into the infinite banking concept. Like really, they kind of just sort of took it at face value, started doing a thing. You know, they've got a whole life policy, they're happy to use it, but they maybe haven't gone all the way in when it comes to some of these ideas.
You know, we're talking Nelson Nash, Nelson Nash, the creator, the discoverer, perhaps of the infinite banking concept. I held up my book earlier, Becoming Your Own Banker. This is oftentimes the best selling book on retirement. On Amazon. And, you know, it's short. It's a little bitty book. But you can reread this thing once or twice a year, and I do, because you're always getting additional little nuggets, you know, and Nelson hasn't been, you know, with us in a few years now.
Building the 10% [7:17]
Luke Tatum: But his message I and that's the whole idea of the Nelson Nash Institute is just to carry forth these simple, broadly applicable principles, you know, to the lives of the people going to the think tank, but then the lives of all the clients of the people at the think tank. Right. And so that's we're trying to, build the 10% is the idea.
Right? And that is to say that let's withdraw our support from the traditional systems, which are oftentimes predatory. And, you know, give the everyman the you and me a shot at a real, you know, sound money foundation, that we can all benefit from. And so it's not a like, take this principled stand and, and stand up to the big bankers and all that stuff and and take a hit for the team.
It's do this because it's good for you and your own life. But at the same time you're also withdrawing support for that fractional reserve fiat currency system. Right. Because we're operating in our, private banking system. And I don't know how much of that we want to necessarily get into in detail. Right. But I'm just kind of kind of thinking broadly here.
Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up [8:35]
Rob Brayton: Yeah. I think it was great that you actually bring it up, though, because that was something that David Stearns touched on. For those who don't know, David Stearns was Nelson's or is Nelson's son in law. And, one of the things that he was talking about, just kind of tying in to that, that 10% sort of sort of mentality was, you know, currently in our in our world today, we operate generally speaking, most economies are operating out of a Keynesian economic type principle.
But that's really just a fancy word for debt based society with top down control. And Nelson was advocating and really discovered this concept that allows us to take a more Austrian approach that is individualized bottom up control, in that you can take full control over your income, your, banking system, so to speak, by financing everything you buy through your own financial system.
And you're the one who profits from that. And and I would just encourage any of our listeners to really understand more, go, go read some books, go get some understanding about the fractional reserve banking system and you'll what you will find quite quickly just how much it sort of rips little pieces away from everybody's individualized wealth.
And this system, allows us to recapture a significant portion of that in our own system over time. And it's a way for us to separate ourselves from those systems, which, quite frankly, are evil, in my opinion, because of how they just remove the wealth out of the system and give it to the people who are at the top.
We get the first use of that new money.
A Tool Isn't Good or Evil [10:19]
Luke Tatum: You know, and it's kind of funny, we're going into all this, but, you know, the system is not good or evil, right? The system, because it's bottom up. It's flipping the whole conventional finance world on its head to do this and to really lean into it. It's up to the individual person. Right? It's like a tool is not good or evil.
The person who wields it is. Right. And so, I mean, the most evil, the most, you know, crazy wealthy, like controlling or whatever big word for bad you want to have, you know, the worst people on the planet. They can also use this system, right? But it doesn't it. And and some of them do. Right. There's tens, hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars maybe tied up in some of these systems by people that you might not like, but, you know, that's kind of the thing about, like a free economy is that, you know, can still cooperate together, right?
If they offer a good or a service. And I want it. Well, we can exchange stuff, and I don't have to cast moral judgment on one thing or the other. Right. It's just to say this is a tool that's available. And since it's available, maybe we should take advantage of it. I'm certainly happy that I am.
You know. And I mean, you're happy that you are. Nick. Here, on the call with this. I mean, he's using it to, And I like all your. I think our great guys.
Nicky P: Really happy about. Gentlemen. What I'm really happy about is that none of us have had to make any sacrifices to bail or visit Epstein's island. That is really important thing where you're thinking about generations ahead without that being a prerequisite.
Luke Tatum: Right. Well, I and you know, you're hitting the nail directly on the head. I was kind of like, totally as tiptoeing around, you know, but yeah, exactly. Exactly right. I mean, we could name names. We could be here a long time and get into all kinds of stuff, but it's like, this is the same thing. It's the exact same thing that, you know, the wealthy elites do.
And so it's just to say, well, if it works for them, why wouldn't it work for me? That's one of the things, right.
Banks Use It Too [12:37]
Rob Brayton: Well, and it isn't just wealthy elites. I mean, bank banks use it too, right? Like they use life insurance for cash value based life insurance as a tier one asset in their portfolios. And it's all available. You can go find it and check it out. So, I mean, if you don't believe us, feel free to go do your research.
But it is there and you can find it. And it's quite surprising to see how much they actually have. So I mean, it again, it ties back to you know, capitalizing ourselves, capitalizing our own system and then having a safe place in which our money is stored and then gives us that opportunity to go use it.
And we can use it how however we see fit. That benefits our own personal situation.
Capital Attracts Opportunity [13:23]
Luke Tatum: As Nelson would say. Like if you accumulate a lot of capital in one place, opportunities are going to seek that out. Right? And so, you know, the vast majority, pretty much everyone that you will ever meet in your life are not well capitalized. You know, that's not a term that they're thinking in. This is, this is a very, different way of thinking.
Right? If you accumulate wealth, if you accumulate capital, if you have the means to entertain opportunities when they arise, opportunities are going to tend to arise. You will find ways to deploy that money to multiply and to, you know, grow what you can, steward for the future. And, you know, I found that to be true myself.
Rob, I would say I'm going to go out on a limb and speak for you. I think you found that to be true to, And so.
Rob Brayton: Absolutely.
Luke Tatum: It's great. It's a good thing.
Rob Brayton: Yeah, I know I've highlighted it on some of my videos before as well on my own channel. But when having that level of capital accumulating and then what you can do with it, I think that's the amazing part that a lot of people aren't thinking about is that it's creating, in a way, creating a platform where you can keep the vast majority of what flows through your hands in your own system.
And to have that ability is it's very freeing, both from a stress perspective, which so many people feel today. But also just knowing that I have access to capital. So if an opportunity comes along that I feel is a great benefit for myself or our family, I'm going to go. I have the opportunity to take advantage of it.
And, you know, much like you were saying, like you start, not everything that comes along is truly an opportunity, but it's amazing how many you start to see once you are beginning to capitalize. So it's pretty interesting how that works.
Know Your Cost of Capital [15:21]
Luke Tatum: You know, it's, this is a thing, and I hesitate to even get into this, but if you have a, loan rate, let's say on your policy, right? You and you do, you've got some sort of a percentage that you've got to factor on in interest cost. What is interest. It's just the price of money over time.
Right. And so you've got an interest rate that you're going to be aware of. And it costs money to deploy your capital in a way where it's still growing for you while you spend it and utilize it right. Well, that is amazing to have that piece of information, because then that helps you evaluate properly what the cost of taking, getting into an opportunity is, right?
A lot of times you just think, well, you know, I've got $10,000 in cash. Maybe I should spend it on that. What's your cost of deploying that $10,000? In order to know that, you have to know what the alternative is, right? What is the alternative? Well, it was just if it was sitting in a savings account.01 percent, you'd probably do better by putting it into this opportunity right.
But this is a way to kind of protect your downside, cover yourself whenever there's a crisis, but also take advantage of opportunities when there's, you know, positive opportunities. If the opportunity doesn't work out, hey, no big deal. You still got this kind of protected asset that you can, you know, reposition and get back, to where you need to be.
Mindset Is the Foundation [16:50]
Luke Tatum: And so, I mean, it's just an incredible thing. We're talking a lot about product and we're talking a lot about, you know, like the kind of ideas that go into using these life insurance policies because that's what it is. But, you know, the mindset is really the foundation. And I think that's kind of where we wanted to go with this today is just, you know, are you a saver?
Are you paying yourself first? Are you know, thinking ahead, are you just going cool? I got paid this week. What am I going to spend it on? Right. I've been there, you know, I've never in a million years thought I was going to be a finance guy with. I grew up, you know what I mean?
But it's so compelling and so transformative. And seeing that for myself and others has just it's locked me right in, you know, and excites me every day to get up and talk about, yeah. I don't know as just how it's how it's kind of worked out for me. Not everybody is that way.
From Liberty Podcasting to Finance [17:53]
Nicky P: But I can speak from firsthand experience that when Rob made there was this change here, and like. But you're such a hippie. Why would you talk about money?
Luke Tatum: Yeah. Nick and I have known each other a long time. You know, and he knows me as the, you know, just kind of podcaster for the sake of it kind of guy, you know, easygoing video game playing guy. I mean, all the all the things. Right? I've got all of my other associated hobbies and things.
Nicky P: But we literally had a hippie pug hippie podcast network at one point called the Liberty Network. And, Henry went no capitalist on us and talk about money.
Luke Tatum: Wouldn't have it any other way, though. And you're along for the ride.
Nicky P: But Lee is talking money, and what money can do for you to help you stand and to get your life looking like you want it to look like, not what they want it to look like for you. So what do you tell people about what they can go and look for right now to help them start that path?
Outro and Free Toolkit [19:02]
Luke Tatum: Yeah, you bet, you bet. Thanks. You know, just to everyone for tuning in, checking out this episode and the think tank is a lot of fun. If it's if you're working with Perfect Spiral Capital, if you're a client of ours and you're interested in going to that at some point, please reach out and let us know.
Tell Rob, tell me. You know, we'd be happy to try to facilitate something, and it'd be cool to spend some time in person if you're not, just go on over to our website and perfectspiralcapital.com/podcast and get a free toolkit there. It's got, my book, the Amazon bestselling title, which I will hold up Between The Lies: How to Reclaim Your Future from the Banks of Wall Street.
And also, it's got two free video courses, one of which is an official video course from the Nelson Nash Institute. So if you want to see kind of what they're all about, what they have to offer, that's in there as well. Again, it's perfectspiralcapital.com/podcast. Check it out. Let us know what you think. Thanks so much for watching.
