Gold and silver hit all-time highs in early 2026. In Episode 024, Luke Tatum, Nicky P and Rob Brayton start with Gresham's law, then look at what Rob sees behind the move: growth in the money supply, banks preferring physical metal to paper claims, and the unwinding of the yen carry trade. They also cover why selling at a high just leaves you with more dollars, and why Rob treats metals as insurance against a weaker dollar.
“Bad money drives out good money”
I'm back after a few weeks away, and gold and silver have been on a tear. I want to start with an old idea that explains a lot of what we're seeing: Gresham's law, the principle that bad money drives out good money. Then Rob walks us through what he thinks is pushing metals higher.
What We Covered
Gresham's law. When people don't trust a currency, they spend it and hold onto the money that keeps its value. That's why gold and silver tend to get hoarded while weaker money changes hands.
The money supply. Rob points out that gold and silver have outpaced almost everything over the past year, and he ties that to continued growth in M2, the broad measure of the money supply.
Banks and physical metal. Rob's read is that bank rules under Basel III now favor physical gold over paper claims on gold, so institutions have been unwinding paper positions and taking in physical metal. We've added an editor's note in the transcript on how those rules actually treat gold.
“Gold and silver are insurance against debasement”
The yen carry trade. For years, big funds borrowed yen at close to zero and put the money to work elsewhere. As Japan raises rates, Rob explains, that trade unwinds, and money that was parked in other assets has to move.
Fear of missing out. I warn against chasing a hot price. Buying because everyone else is buying is how people get hurt, in metals or anything else.
If you sell, you just have more dollars. A rising gold price isn't automatically a sell signal. If you sell, what you're left holding is more of the currency that's losing value. Rob agrees: he treats gold and silver as insurance against debasement, not a way to chase returns.
“It is not a sell signal for the price of your gold and silver to go up.”
Fort Knox and price manipulation. Whatever happened to that Fort Knox audit? We also talk about JPMorgan's $920 million settlement over spoofing in precious metals markets from 2008 to 2016, a reminder that big players have moved these prices before.
Confidence in the dollar. Nicky asks what happens when foreign buyers lose confidence in the dollar. Rob says some foreign holders have been shifting from US Treasuries toward gold.
Gold as a hedge against an AI bubble. Rob thinks the AI boom could see a correction of 25% to 30%, and that some people are buying metals as a hedge. Since a handful of AI-linked companies make up so much of the S&P 500, buying the index today means betting heavily on AI.
Key Takeaway
A higher price for gold mostly tells you the dollar is worth less. Rob's way of thinking about it is that metals are insurance against debasement, not a get-rich trade. The same goes for where you keep your savings. We use properly designed whole life insurance at Perfect Spiral Capital as a savings tool, because the cash value grows on a contractually guaranteed basis whatever the metals market does.
Key Moments
[1:00] Why Gold and Silver Are Up
[2:00] The Money Supply and Bank Rules
[3:00] The Yen Carry Trade
[6:00] If You Sell, You Just Have More Dollars
[6:00] Insurance Against Debasement
[11:00] Fort Knox and Price Manipulation
[14:00] Borrowing Yen at Near Zero
[19:00] Foreign Holders Move Toward Gold
[23:00] Gold as a Hedge Against an AI Bubble
[24:00] Buying the S&P 500 Means Buying AI
“So when you start seeing movement, it means other things are moving around it”
Related Episodes
Episode 041: Fort Knox vs. Beijing: Is China About to Expose the World's Gold Lie?
Episode 043: Bank of Japan Rate Hikes Just Triggered the First US Yen Intervention Since 1998
Episode 016: How Do You Plan When Much of the Market Has No Track Record? Big Tech, Bitcoin and Gold
Want the full conversation, including Rob on the yen carry trade and JPMorgan's spoofing settlement? Listen to the full episode and grab the free toolkit at PerfectSpiralCapital.com/podcast.
FAQ
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There's no single answer, and the hosts say nobody knows for certain. In Episode 024, Rob Brayton points to continued growth in the money supply, banks favoring physical metal over paper claims, and the unwinding of the yen carry trade as Japan raised rates. Luke Tatum adds that a higher price in dollars also tells you the dollar buys less.
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Gresham's law says bad money drives out good money. When a currency is losing value, people tend to spend it and hold onto money with lasting value, like gold and silver.
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Luke Tatum's view is that a rising price isn't automatically a sell signal. If you sell, you end up holding more dollars, and the dollar is what's losing value. Rob Brayton thinks of gold and silver as insurance against currency debasement rather than a way to chase returns. That's a way to think about it, not advice to buy or sell.
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The yen carry trade means borrowing in Japanese yen, where interest rates sat near zero for years, and putting that money into higher-paying assets elsewhere. As the Bank of Japan raises rates, the trade becomes less attractive, and unwinding it can move markets around the world.
Show full transcript
Between The Lies: Episode 024 Transcript
Nicky P: Silver and gold. Silver and gold. What's it mean for our dollar that they're both going up? Nothing good to my mind. Welcome to the Between The Lies Podcast, your weekly lesson on how to approach an. Uncertain world with positivity and balance. I'm Nicky P here with my good friends and money brains, Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton from the Perfect Spiral Capital as they help us navigate the snares and pitfalls in a world of, trust me, bro, economics.
Stick around to the end of the video for a chance that they're free toolkit and by chance, I mean you just click the link and be sure to like and subscribe if you enjoy what we're doing. Gentlemen, tell me more about this Gresham's law you were talking about before we started rolling.
Luke Tatum: All right. All right.
Gresham's Law [0:00]
Luke Tatum: Well, first of all, let me say it is good to be back. I've been absent for a couple episodes, three episodes, something like that. Just, the craziness of life. So, missed everyone. I am here again. I'm happy to, happy to be back. We're talking about Gresham's Law. We're talking about gold and silver.
Gresham's Law is. Bad money drives out good money, and the idea being that if your currency is bad, if it's being manipulated, there's negative things happening to your money. People will tend to hold. The assets that actually have value and spend the money that is going down in value, becoming more worthless.
So is that what we are seeing with the US dollar? Is the US dollar absolute trash garbage and people are holding on to gold and silver and trying to get more gold and silver? Is there more going on than that open book? Open and shut case or not? I don't know. We're gonna get into it today. What's your first stab at this, Rob?
What do you think?
Why Gold and Silver Are Up [1:00]
Rob Brayton: Yeah, so we certainly, gold and silver have been on a tear, right? They've outpaced virtually anything in the last 12 months. So curious as we are, being that we're finance nerds in some respects, albeit non-traditional. We, I've been digging into it a little bit to try to understand like what's really happening and why are we seeing some of these major changes.
The Money Supply and Bank Rules [2:00]
Rob Brayton: So a couple of things that I've found, certainly the US or the Fed and the United States government are not doing anything to control spending. They're not doing anything to stop the growth of the M2, which is the money supply. So every dollar that's being printed, so to speak, quote unquote, is deflating every other dollar that's already out there.
So we have that, that's a big part of it. On top of that, we also have, something that is probably a little less known to a lot of people, and that was, what's called it has to do with banking regulation on a world or global scale. And that was a measure called Basel III. What that said and actually put into play was that if you, if a bank now uses physical gold and silver, it classifies as a tier one asset and they do not have to, it can be leveraged at full value of whatever it is.
So, it counts as a tier one asset and they are actually penalized in some respects if they try to hold paper versions of gold and silver. So they've been sort of unwinding that paper and taking in that physical gold and silver, as a result. [Editor's note: Basel III doesn't make gold a Tier 1 capital asset. Physical gold a bank holds outright carries a 0% risk weight, and Basel III's stable funding rules raised the cost for banks of holding some gold positions.] And then there's one other aspect that I found, and that is there's a whole lot less cheap and or free money, as there was what was called a yen carry trade, which we're not gonna go into detail on all of every one of these things by any means, but a lot of these.
The Yen Carry Trade [3:00]
Rob Brayton: Global type companies, they've tried to find and use whatever currency they can get money their hands on with at the lowest cost of interest. So the yen for a very long time, was essentially at a zero interest rate. So let's say a big corporation could go get money in yen, they could use that as capital, go invest it someplace else for virtually no cost.
And then make a lot of profit while the Central Bank of Japan has been increasing that interest rate pretty steeply and pretty rapidly. So that's re removed this sort of yen carry trade, if you wanna call it that, from the market space. So where do people go while they start? That tends to yield into a flight to.
Strong assets, and that's where we have this big increase in gold and silver. Now, I'm not professing to be the expert and know every little detail here, just from my cursory research. These seem to be some of the biggest triggers of what's going on in the marketplace.
Luke Tatum: Yeah, I wanna talk about the carry trade thing a bit.
I think it's very interesting and I kind of follow the, a little bit more so than maybe the average finance guy I track. Some of the Japanese happenings just 'cause I have an interest in game development companies. And some of that stuff is just a kind of a niche interest of mine. I wanna get into that, but it's also probably the least interesting topic out of all the thanks we're gonna talk about.
Fear of Missing Out [5:00]
Luke Tatum: So I, maybe I'll save that and we come back to it or something. But. You know, we were just looking at the spot price of gold and stuff right before this, and I think it's, everybody's seeing this and they're going, oh my gosh, I should buy gold and silver. It's like when Bitcoin took off, you know, several years ago for the first time, it's like, oh my.
Yeah, exactly. Fear of missing out. Oh my gosh, I gotta get into this right now. This is not the time unless you think that it's gonna just continue to ratchet and continue to ratchet up. Go look at a 20 year. Or a 30 year, a 40 year chart for gold, you know, or silver. And it's not even just those too, you know, you have other, metals, other assets that, have been increasing in price.
If You Sell, You Just Have More Dollars [6:00]
Luke Tatum: But that's the most commercially known thing is this gold, silver trade stuff. So. You're up 800, 900, 1100% potentially, you know, on gold if you've been holding it for a long time. Which is pretty cool. But as we were just discussing before we hit record, well, if you sell it. Then you just have more dollars, right?
If you're in the US you just have a lot of dollars. Well, the dollars are going down in value, like that's part of this equation. It is not a sell signal for the price of your gold and silver to go up. You know, it's like a, oh, I'm really glad I already bought this signal. I'm gonna keep it longer. I mean, why is that?
Right? But what if you need it?
Insurance Against Debasement [6:00]
Rob Brayton: Well, and I think that's the big thing, right, is so many people, they're thinking in terms of dollars and you're, if you're thinking as the dollar, as your baseline, you're actually thinking about precious metal commodities in the wrong mindset. You have to think of them as a store of value.
So what you are seeing is, oh, it costs more. Well, that means the dollar's worth less. It doesn't mean that the value of gold is necessarily way up, nor with silver. Maybe silver because of its industrial use and that supply tightening right now that I could actually see where there is some actual spike in the value.
However, it's not to the, maybe not to the point where it is at the moment because you have a lot of hype around these two things. But so often, and this is where I feel really bad for a lot of, you know, what you would call, just like, regular consumer type investors that are starting to pile into this stuff.
You're actually looking at it completely wrong. This is an odd about trying to chase a return on a precious metal. They don't return, generally speaking, they're, they tend to be flat. So if you're trying to protect yourself, yes, that's gold and silver are insurance against debasement, against, you know, currency erosion and that's really what they are.
So you, what do you do with insurance? Ideally you buy it cheap. And then you maybe sell it when it's really high, if you plan to stay in the dollar or your long dollar or something like that. But yeah, that's a thing that a lot of people kind of miss. And, you know, I, it's easy to happen, right?
Because we're so sort of inculcated with these ideas about what, how Wall Street operates, even from a very young age.
Why Gold Holds Its Value [8:00]
Nicky P: Well, one of the things you said there, I think is worth pointing out in, A particular type of way for us normies here who aren't necessarily experts in finance, and it's that the value of gold tends to be pretty flat.
And the reason is because gold doesn't change its position in society. It's not like suddenly people covet gold more. You know, you use it for, in technical stuff, you use it for jewelry. It has the, a value in society that you know, culturally might. Ebb and flow a little bit, but it's not gonna be a huge value change.
So when you see things start moving around that and that value of going up, well, that value is not really going up because it's kind of always the same culturally. So when you start seeing movement, it means other things are moving around it and you're seeing that.
Big Institutions Move the Price [9:00]
Luke Tatum: I think that Basel III thing is really the crux of the matter in a, in a big way because, you know, you or I do not have the potential to go out and buy enough gold, or sell enough gold to change the price, right?
Even if everyone I've ever met. Got together and formed a big club and we all decided to buy gold, or all decided to sell gold all at the same time. We're all, we're still not gonna really have a big impact on the price of gold, like in the global sense. Right. But institutions, you know, if Citi and Chase, you know, and all these guys are all shifting their assets around and taking on physical gold, physical silver, those sorts of things that.
Enough to move the price. Right.
Nicky P: So you've mentioned Basel III, and most people probably aren't going to understand the significance of why Basel III happened and the fact that, you know. We have fraud going on a lot of places in the in the world. And well, some of the notions of how much gold were actually backed by paper or piece of paper were backed by actual gold started getting sketchy.
And then you start extrapolating that out into derivatives and. All of a sudden there's a whole lot of like, where is all of this gold? Like, is, does this, does it, is it real? And what you end up finding out is, well, not in a sense, maybe in some sense. And so they were forced to like actively delineate between the paper gold and the real gold, to start, as you said, unwinding.
The picture,
Fort Knox and Price Manipulation [11:00]
Luke Tatum: Whatever happened to that Fort Knox audit?
Rob Brayton: Yeah.
Luke Tatum: You know, like, does anybody have any confidence that there's a bunch of gold sitting there in Fort Knox? No. At least I don't. Otherwise it'd be no big deal. Right? Yeah, sure. We've got it. It's right here.
Rob Brayton: I mean, we know that the price does get manipulated, right?
It does. I mean, JP Morgan paid $920 million. Even though they're, and the thing that just blows my mind is, you know, they made more money than this over that timeframe from 2008 to 2016 that they were manipulating the gold price through, or the, I should say the silver prices through spoofing. So when we, when we know that, I mean it, how much of this could be driven by that as well?
I don't know. Right. We don't know. But. It does now that that's sort of unwound and they, you know, we know that it did happen, and hopefully there isn't more of that occurring right now. I can't imagine why you would necessarily manipulate it up unless you're trying to keep people from purchasing.
But I, yeah, it's really interesting to say the least when you think about it on a global scale and then how that all did tie in, with some of those Basel III changes.
Luke Tatum: Yeah, I, you know, it. You've already sort of touched on this, Rob, but like we're not the experts. Like we don't know. And I think honestly, anybody that's out there saying, oh, this is the explanation, like they don't freaking know.
I mean, you know, we have opinions, we have some factors that we can look at and say, you know, yes, this is probably playing a role. Yes, this is probably playing a role. We understand economics. Everybody on this. Podcast, you know, we've got some basic grounding and some economic principles, but we don't know what's going on because the manipulations and all these things, they show up, but we don't know where they came from.
Right? We see the price. We don't see that behind the scenes. I don't get invited to board meetings at, bank of America, you know what I'm saying? So, and certainly not the FOMC or any of that. But. Let's maybe shift, if we can, guys into that global foreign exchange kind of space just a little bit more, because you have this carry trade that you brought up, Rob, where you know, institutions, this is primarily institutional investors.
Borrowing Yen at Near Zero [14:00]
Luke Tatum: Hedge funds, you know, the hundreds of billions of dollars investment type groups that are taking a loan over in Japan. They're. Putting money into yen, they're taking a loan. In terms of yen, the Japanese interest rate has been basically 0% forever. I mean, I say forever. 20 years I believe.
Yeah,
Rob Brayton: It's been a long time.
Luke Tatum: So they're talking about raising it from like zero to a quarter of a percent. And that is a massive, a massive blow to these like. Schemes, for lack of a better term, right, where you're saying, okay, I can, I can borrow money at 0.1%. I'm gonna take that and I'm gonna go get a yield in US bonds at 3% and like, that's not much money, but it's very easy if you have confidence that.
US bonds are gonna still pay more than nothing, and that the Bank of Japan isn't gonna raise rates, which historically has been a good move. That's been a solid bet for a long time, and so just, it shows you, once again how shaky a lot of these foundations really are. When we're gonna raise interest rates, a quarter of a percent above zero.
And it's like, oh my gosh, you know, people are panicking about this. My complicated system of 30 year bonds, it's gonna fall apart by the time I pay currency exchange rates to get my dollars back into dollars, you know, go through this whole unwinding process to get back to USD so I can spend it in the US to buy, you know, mortgage backed securities or whatever.
That whole thing, if that's. The level of risk that you're taking on. It's just, I don't know. It blows my mind a little bit how completely convoluted this is. And so Japan is just like a clearing house for these sorts of, you know, low rate, safe money deals in a way. I don't know, I'm open to either of y'all's opinions on it, but it's crazy to me.
Nicky P: Well, I like when you refer to these things as schemes.
Luke Tatum: Yeah. You know what they are.
Rob Brayton: They sure feel that way. I mean, look at the banking system in our, in the uni, the US kind of feels like a scheme.
Confidence in the Dollar [16:00]
Nicky P: I always bring it back to the big short when you realize how this is just some weird game to some people, because the minute you start getting into derivatives and making bets on bets on bets, and you're just like.
None of this is real. This is making money off of betting on things that are already bet on and then betting against them to bet on them again, like it's frustrating. One thing that I haven't heard either of you mention really, is. The general confidence in the American dollar, just because of our position culturally and in the world.
Given, you know, Trump, our own, like, let's say like our own stability with the ice raids and everything like that, how much of that do you guys see as being. Like just part of lost confidence causing that, the dollar value to go down next to the, you know, gold and silver.
Luke Tatum: Yeah. You know, I'll take a quick stab at that, Nick.
The consumer confidence, you know, like scores that are out there, I don't typically put a lot of stock and things like that 'cause they're just surveys, you know? Like who are you surveying? I don't know. These people, you know, it seems very easy to not really get. Good data with stuff like that.
Nicky P: I've never answered one.
Luke Tatum: Not me neither. They're not asking me. So, you know, it's like a jury of your peers, how do I know? Right. But the, that is at a low point. I forget what the timeframe is. I don't have it in front of me. But it's, you know, consumer confidence is quite low, historically speaking, in the US right now.
And what is consumer confidence? It's just like, you know. A positive outlook on the long-term prospects for the US economy. Right. Do I have that? No, I don't. Do I have confidence in my ability to navigate the ups and downs of what's coming? Sure. Like I don't have a problem. Right. And that's kind of what this podcast is about.
But you know, am I supposed to just look at what's going on with. As you put it, you know, the ice raids and things like that, and just go, oh, sure, everything's great. I feel great about what's happening in the country where I live. Well, no, I don't feel great about that. Why? Why else would we have this podcast?
You know, if it was all good news,
Nicky P: You're actually, I wasn't necessarily even going towards the general. Our American consumer. I was thinking, you know, foreign consumption of like American money, like we're just not a safe place to hang onto dollars anymore. It's just more of that. What would, to me feels like an endless pulling out, you know, of the global markets for America.
Foreign Holders Move Toward Gold [19:00]
Rob Brayton: Yeah, I mean there's certainly been a decrease in US treasuries. I mean, there has been, and, and most of it's going toward gold. That, I mean, that's just apparent in the marketplace, but does that mean that there's a complete loss of confidence in the dollar? I don't necessarily think so. I mean, the US is still a superpower by any way.
We look at it. Not that I think that's a badge of honor to wear, but I mean, in some respects it is. So others it isn't. That's a whole different conversation. But, I mean, I don't think that the dollar's necessarily going anywhere per se, at least not right now. But does that mean on a global scale that people are a little worried?
Yeah, I would think so.
Nicky P: Getting skittish, you know.
Rob Brayton: Yeah. So, I mean, or maybe they're heavily leveraged on it, so they're like, well, maybe we need to tailor pull this back a little bit. You know, maybe we just have too much, so let's, we see that nobody's doing anything there to really control it. So let's move to say, 15, 20% of our total reserves here.
Or wherever it might be. Right. So I think you see some of that taking place right now.
Luke Tatum: Yeah. People are always gonna hedge their bets. Right? If you have this kind of sentiment right now with all these things going on, and you're say, you know, a hedge fund manager or something, you're an international investment organization, what are you gonna do about that?
Well, you're probably gonna pull out a dollars a little bit, right? Ah, maybe I should put some more kind of in some other places, develop some other. Potential responses to a further, you know, devaluation of further loss of confidence. But it's not a, I don't think we're at that point where it's like a plunge away from where things have been.
Big Ideas That May Never Happen [21:00]
Luke Tatum: I think a lot of people are looking at what the US Empire is doing with, you know, Hey, are we gonna acquire more? Countries, are we going to acquire more continents? You know, some of these crazy things that have been floated around. Saw that, image of Trump showing a graphic of with a US flag on like all of North America and Greenland and all this stuff, you know, like we're gonna pull Canada into the US and all this.
And it's like, I don't know what the hell's going on with that, but, you know. That ha It hasn't occurred at this time. You know what I'm saying? We're just, I can say any random nonsense. I want to in any kind of board meeting anywhere, and that doesn't mean anything's actually changed. Right. So, as these sort of out there ideas, I mean, it's just like first term Trump in a way.
He would throw all of these things out there all the time, like every day of the week. You're like, what did he say? What is he thinking? What is going on? And. A handful of those things would turn into something real and a hand and 90% of 'em wouldn't. Right? So you kinda have to see where these things land and with that information, you either see the dollar confidence and some of these other things kind of swing back the other way, or it continues to move, you know, in a negative direction.
The continued. Focus on like AI and rare earth metals and some of these things is something that I'm paying a lot of attention to as well on this front with like, are we even doing anything worthwhile If the US is buying shares and companies and doing all these things to capitalize on this massive surge in interest for ai, but that's not real.
If that is an illusory thing that we're chasing and that all unwinds, that could potentially look pretty bad. Right. For some of these long-term prospects, if that turns out to be absolutely worth it goes the other way. You know? Do I, can I predict the future? No. But
Gold as a Hedge Against an AI Bubble [23:00]
Rob Brayton: Yeah, I, on that front, Luke, which I think is a really good point to bring up, and I think why maybe some of the, we see some people getting into gold that maybe wouldn't otherwise.
Maybe they do kind of feel like. This whole AI thing is a major bubble and this is the way to protect themselves through it. I mean, you could have some of that taking place too, because if it, if that were to unwind and it really does not pan out the way that's anticipated. I mean, we're not talking about a 10% correction here.
We're talking with how big and how heavily invested these companies are. We're talking about 25, 30% correction, and that's not a correction. That's like potential depression territory.
Buying the S&P 500 Means Buying AI [24:00]
Luke Tatum: Well, anytime you have a situation like this, I don't have another example off the top of my head, but if you buy the S&P 500 right now, like an index fund, it's almost the same thing as just buying like a sector fund for, you know, semiconductors and ai.
Nvidia is still something like 14% of the entire S&P 500. [Editor's note: Nvidia was about 7% to 8% of the S&P 500 at the time.] Like what are we doing? I feel like I say that every episode, but I just can't comprehend that just buy Nvidia stock. Like, what the hell is it? Makes no sense to me. But if that goes the other way, I mean even, what's his name? The CEO of Nvidia is like we're propping up the entire stock market ourselves.
So anything happens to that confidence in Nvidia, that's a huge correction. And so there's a lot of very, like, out on a limb precarious positions and a lot of those things could go one way or the other.
Nicky P: I, every time I think Nvidia, I just, I laughed, someone made the joke, not too long ago, but it's like, well, they're really showing how much they care about the environment now that we need to put data centers everywhere.
Luke Tatum: Well, right. I love how all the, we're using too much energy and we're gonna make sea levels rise and, you know, California's gonna be underwater. All this stuff about like global warming, all these things, it's like, well, but now we really wanna make a lot of AI slop, right? And so now it doesn't matter.
Now it's okay if your house is underwater. Sorry. It's just the price you pay for ai. Video gen or whatever. It's, I, it just, I, whatever man, it's so tiresome.
Nicky P: I mean, nevermind that they still own all of those beachfront properties themselves.
Luke Tatum: Yeah. They would sell them if they actually thought that. Never ever think about that.
Nicky P: Alright, gentlemen, why don't you take us out there, Luke. 'cause you're back in the fold.
Outro and Free Toolkit [26:00]
Luke Tatum: I'm back in the fold. All right. Yep. So thank you so much everyone as always, for joining us on the Between The Lies Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did. It's obvious that you're interested in the future of money and we can help you with the future of your money.
Paying attention to these signs in the economy is just part of that. We also like to teach people about the wonderful world of infinite banking and what does that mean? How can you leverage that? How can you put an insurance company's money to work to better your own life? That's what we teach, so we've got.
My Amazon bestselling book, and we've got two free video courses and all of that is available to you just for your email address. You can find it perfectspiralcapital.com/podcast. Hope you'll check it out, and we'll see you again next week.
