A government shutdown sounds like a crisis, but most of what it costs gets paid out anyway once the government reopens, and the longest shutdown on record barely dented the economy. In Episode 010, recorded during the October 2025 shutdown, Nicky P, Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton ask why nothing gets solved when funding lapses, what it means that federal spending equals about 23% of GDP, and how to keep a shutdown from shaking your own finances.
“Some ways I wish they would last a lot longer, so people could actually realize how much they don’t need the government.”
Luke calls the government shutdown his favorite annual holiday, and he's only half joking. He used to bake a cake for it. Behind the humor is a serious question: if the government can stop for weeks and most people barely notice, how much of it do we need, and why does nothing get fixed when it starts back up?
What We Covered
Nothing gets solved. Rob is fairly relaxed about shutdowns. Federal workers get back pay once a deal passes, and he wishes they lasted long enough for people to see how little they need the government. What bothers him is that each one ends with the can kicked down the road and the same inflationary system left in place.
Closing the parks. Luke notes that parks are always among the first things closed, just as they were in 2020. Nicky says officials have been open about making a shutdown hurt so people feel how much they need government. Luke asks the obvious question: if it's a public park and he's the public, what is he missing? Rob suggests services like park staffing could be privatized and run better for less.
Who gets paid by the government. Nicky starts with the 2 to 3% of Americans paid directly by the federal government, which Rob notes makes it the largest employer in the country. Luke adds the contractors around the DC Beltway, who are paid by private companies but depend on federal money. Luke and Nicky also talk about how far the commerce clause has been stretched to reach things that never cross a state line.
“It’s not like nobody has ever seen a government shutdown before, right? It’s my favorite annual holiday.”
Federal spending at 23% of GDP. Nicky looks up federal spending: about $6.75 trillion in fiscal year 2024, roughly 23% of gross domestic product. Luke's dry response is that it's some good Keynesian economics. Nicky's point is that if government overpays for what it buys, close to a quarter of the economy runs at that efficiency, and much of the money never reaches the people it's meant for.
A known risk of the job. Luke isn't dismissing the people affected. His point is that anyone who takes a federal job knows shutdowns happen, the same way oil field workers know oil prices matter. Rob, careful not to sound unkind, says a shutdown is a fair moment to ask whether your work adds value people would pay for directly.
What past shutdowns did. Nicky reads a few figures and invites corrections in the comments. The longest shutdown on record ran 35 days across 2018 and 2019, and its effect on GDP was small. Losses tend to be short term, partly because the money gets paid out once the government reopens. Luke compares the COVID shutdowns, when officials celebrated job numbers recovering from losses the closures caused.
“The thing about the private sector is that it actually discovers dead end jobs, things that aren’t helping people. And it reallocates and it adapts”
Shovels and spoons. Luke tells the story usually attributed to Milton Friedman: shown workers digging with shovels to keep employment up, he asked why not give them spoons. Busy work makes a number look good without building anything.
Trump's permanent cuts. Nicky notes that funding has lapsed 20 times since 1977. On Trump's talk of making some cuts permanent, Rob says shrinking the government would help everyone who lives here, even if it doesn't feel that way in the short term.
Opportunity cost and a better way to help. Nicky says some people are content to live on a government check. Rob thinks about the opportunity cost: any one of them might have been the next great innovator if they'd been challenged. Luke speaks to anyone whose living comes from the government: the private sector finds dead-end work and moves people toward what helps paying customers, so if your heart is in serving others, there may be a better way to do it.
Key Takeaway
You can't decide when Congress funds the government, but you can decide how exposed you are when it doesn't. Rob's advice is to structure your own finances so a lost paycheck or a paused program doesn't interrupt your saving or your plans. That's the work Luke and Rob do with clients at Perfect Spiral Capital, whether they work in the public sector or the private one.
Key Moments
[2:00] Closing the Parks
[4:00] Who Is Paid by the Government?
[8:00] Federal Spending at 23% of GDP
[9:00] A Shutdown Is a Known Job Risk
[11:00] What Past Shutdowns Did
[14:00] Shovels and Spoons
[17:00] Trump's Permanent Cuts
[18:00] Living Off a Government Check
[21:00] A Better Way to Help People
[23:00] Insulating Your Own Finances
“If you are impacted or this is something that impacts people, there are ways to help insulate yourself against it.”
Related Episodes
Episode 006: Trump's Tariffs Ruled Illegal: Who Really Pays for Tariffs?
Episode 009: Why Are Americans Swimming in Credit Card Debt? Inflation, Spending and $1.2 Trillion
Episode 014: Why Was SNAP on the Line in the Shutdown? Food Aid, the Benefit Cliff and Political Leverage
Want the full conversation, including the shovels and spoons story? Listen to the full episode and grab the free toolkit at PerfectSpiralCapital.com/podcast.
FAQ
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When Congress doesn’t pass funding in time, federal agencies stop work that isn't classified as essential. Many federal employees are furloughed, and services like national parks can close. Essential work continues, and in recent shutdowns federal workers have received back pay once funding passed.
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Less than you might expect. The longest shutdown on record lasted 35 days, from December 2018 to January 2019, and its effect on GDP was small and mostly made up afterward, because delayed spending and back pay came through once it ended. In Episode 010, Nicky P points out how striking that is for a government whose spending equals about 23% of GDP.
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Federal spending was about $6.75 trillion in fiscal year 2024, roughly 23% of gross domestic product, and that doesn't count state and local government. Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton argue that because government spends less efficiently than private businesses, a share that large is a drag on everyone.
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Keep a cushion of savings you can reach quickly, so a missed paycheck or a paused program doesn't force you to stop saving or sell assets at a bad time. At Perfect Spiral Capital, that often means building savings in properly designed whole life insurance, where cash value grows on a contractually guaranteed basis and stays available to you.
Show full transcript
Between The Lies: Episode 010 Transcript
Is Your Inner Ron Swanson Celebrating? [0:00]
Nicky P: Government shutdown is looming. Why can't these Republicans and Democrats get their business together and keep our government functioning? Welcome to the Between The Lies Podcast, your weekly lesson on how to approach an uncertain world with positivity and balance. I'm Nicky P here with my good friends and money brains.
Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton from Perfect Spiral Capital. Stick around to the end of the video for their free toolkit and be sure to like and subscribe if you enjoy our video, gentlemen. Is your inner Ron Swanson grinning huge in cheering slash it slash it?
Luke Tatum: You bet. So happy government. Shut down everybody.
You know. Tea, cheers, toast everybody, you know. Wonderful. Okay. I was just telling you guys right before we started, but we used to celebrate this. We used to bake a cake. We would've a government shutdown cake. You know, it's a whole big thing. We're a little stressed out about a few things that we don't have to get into on the air this year.
But, you know, just in general, like what a, what a happy time. You know, this is really my favorite annual holiday. So, what, how do you feel, Rob?
Nothing Actually Gets Solved [1:00]
Rob Brayton: Yeah, I agree with you. I tend to be fairly happy about them in some respects. I mean, in. Some ways I wish they would last a lot longer, so people could actually realize how much they don't need the government.
At the same time, I do know that there are certain aspects of government that some people, you know, miss or would like to see stay around, which includes, you know, some of the national parks, things like that, if somebody's traveling. But, you know, outside of that, I'm not, really not all that worried.
You know, it's not like the federal workers don't get paid. They get, they get their back pay, when things get pushed through. I think the more disappointing part of it that I tend to think about is most of the time nothing actually gets solved for, we just kick the can down the road and no real resolution comes out.
No one actually does anything other than continue to perpetuate our inflationary system. That much bigger.
Closing the Parks [2:00]
Luke Tatum: Yeah. I mean, and it's so classic government to say, well, we're taking away your parks until we get this solved. I mean, if anyone, I mean, everyone surely remembers. The, COVID era, right? 2020. I mean, you have people, well, I had friends cutting chains for locked parks to let people back in.
Like that's the safest place you could have possibly been, is in natural sunlight, which is a natural disinfectant, you know, like, out there in nature. You know, beaches, places like that. I mean, what a wonderful place to be when there's a, an epidemic, however you feel about that. But, and yet it's a pain point.
You know, oh my gosh, we planned this vacation, we drove all the way to Yellowstone, or whatever, and we're not gonna get to even go. What a terrible thing. It's just like, it's inflicted on us, you know, to try to make us regret that we let the government get to this point or something.
Nicky P: Well, and there.
Very honest about the fact that, oh, we want to make it hurt so that you understand how much you need us. So we specifically target these things. Now, mind you, why do you need someone to open? A plot of land to you, why can't you just go into the plot of land that supposedly you own anyways?
Luke Tatum: Right. The whole myth of, we are the government, right?
You know, well if I, if I paid for it and that's why you pay, that's why I have to pay taxes is so that I have access to public things. And this is a public thing. It says right there, public park. I'm the public. I, what am I missing here? You know, it's a little weird.
Could the Parks Be Privatized? [4:00]
Rob Brayton: I like to look at it too, is the vast majority of these things that are out there that are sort of on shutdown because of the government, how many of those could actually be privatized, like manning the parks can and should be probably privatized instead of it being part of the federal budget.
You know, it would. For one, it'd probably be a lot more cost effective and two, you know, potentially better service.
Luke Tatum: Ah, but Rob, evil capitalists are gonna charge us hundreds of thousands of dollars to get in to see nature. We're not gonna be able to see nature if we give it to private companies.
Nicky P: Those evil capitalists might mean nature hangs on a little bit longer by actually protecting it too.
Rob Brayton: Yeah.
Luke Tatum: Yep. I don't have a real devil's advocate argument 'cause I align with you guys, but.
Who Is Paid by the Government? [4:00]
Nicky P: I did have a demographic here, guys, that, is probably not happy about government shutdown, and that is the two to 3% of Americans that are paid directly by the government. Those people probably aren't happy
Rob Brayton: They are the world or the nation's largest employer, right?
Which make doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you know your, you know, should they really be the world, the na, the nation's largest employer. I mean, I beg to disagree, but that's because of we, the people have let the scope go way too large and we've abdicated our responsibility to do something about it and hold people accountable.
But then again, there's a lot of, corruption and different things that have worked their way in over time too, that have allowed that to take place.
Nicky P: I don't know how much we, the people can actually affect things. 'cause you know, we, the people aren't the ones that put the people into the Supreme Court.
That said, anything that traveling between states, whether it's exchanging money for dollars or not, is commerce making the commerce clause affect Absolutely everything that happens in life, like it's, oh, you wanna, you wanna not do business? Well that's affecting commerce, so we have to force you in the business.
How Far the Commerce Clause Reaches [6:00]
Luke Tatum: Right? I mean, there's even that story, and I can't remember what state it is, but you know, a man wanted to. Drink milk that he got from his own cows on his own land. And the argument in court was, well, this is interstate commerce, because he could have sold it in a different state. And it's like, what are we doing here?
You know, like there's not a short list, unfortunately of extremely ludicrous examples of interstate commerce being used to justify, you know, all kinds of nonsense. I, and I mean. To your point though, Rob, like the DC Beltway and you know, the huge number of people that are paid directly by the government or who are federal, you know, contractors that like a couple of steps removed from the federal government.
Technically they're paid by a private company, but. Also technically not really.
Nicky P: Two to 3% that I was touting didn't even get to that that part will Right. If
Rob Brayton: The contractor side of it is like ridiculous. Right, right. It's probably larger. Think it jumps up to like
Nicky P: Talk about yourselves while I look this one up.
'cause I'm curious now. Okay. Okay.
Is My Job Adding to the Economy? [7:00]
Rob Brayton: I will say, you know, I don't, I certainly don't want people to think we're like completely insensitive jerks. It's a situation where like. Like, we get it does impact people on a day-to-day basis. But what that should tell you is maybe I should consider what I'm doing.
If my job is required to have the federal government pay me, am I actually contributing to the economy? You know, it is a more of a fundamental type question. Because you're relying on the other people's money in order to get paid. And I know that that doesn't come across the best, but that's the reality of what's what we can see and what some of these people are feeling at this moment.
Federal Spending at 23% of GDP [8:00]
Nicky P: Two to 3%. Guys, not to cut you off here, but you're gonna really love this. Number. Two to 3% is like, you know, the what they actually employ. No. When you re look for what percentage of the, GDP. US government fund. This is what I searched for, to which I have. 6.75 trillion in fiscal year 2024, which equals 23% of the gross domestic product the government directly pays for.
Luke Tatum: Wow. That's some good Keynesian economics right there. You know, that's prosperity. C what is it? CIG equals Y, right? I mean, that's what we're dealing with here. It's, Hey, we got government spending. We're looking great. So, that's shockingly bad.
Nicky P: Just based on what we know about how the government spends our dollars efficiently.
Like that's 25% of our economy. We know that we're overpaying for whatever we're getting
Rob Brayton: And we're paying for it, not willingly it's being taken from us. So go ahead and not choose not to pay it and see what happens. And, you know, tell me how that goes, because it's not fun,
A Shutdown Is a Known Job Risk [9:00]
Luke Tatum: Right. You know, a couple of points.
So, so. Some estimates. I mean, there's a lot of ways to estimate this, but some estimates would say that it's about seven times less efficient for the government to do something than for a private firm to do it, right. If you have a, you know, charity for the poor or what have you're wasting. Most, you know, six sevenths of the money is going to fund cronies and, you know, pay for all this nonsense and it just kind of gets sucked up by the black hole that is the government.
And then, yeah, some money does go to people that are in a bad situation, but at what cost? That question never gets like really asked, you know? And so that's bad. And then you're talking about people working for the government, being paid by the government and. Knowing, you know, that maybe, hey, maybe this is not something I should be doing.
Hey, am I really contributing anything to like benefiting mankind? But beyond that, you have to know that a government shutdown is a risk if you take that job. If you work in the oil field, you have to know that the price of oil is going to affect your work. You know, if you work for. An airline, you have to know that seasonally demand for air, you know, flying is gonna be variable, right?
You have to know these things. That's part of having the job work, working for the federal government. It's not like nobody has ever seen a government shutdown before, right? It's my favorite annual holiday. Like I can't, I can't stress, this is very routine, you know? And so. To be outraged as though this has never happened and would, should never have happened.
Like, it's just so weird to me. Like, we do this every time. It's the same old song and dance,
What Past Shutdowns Did [11:00]
Nicky P: And that's one of the things about, that's what you, we joke, you know, or that we treat it as a holiday in our world. But, so like you're just illustrating that we have actual data telling us what shutdowns historically have done.
So I'm just gonna read a few little factoids that I pulled up here. By all means, if I have these wrong, you know, I'm doing the same AI search everybody else does. But yes, please correct us in the comments. The longest shutdown ever was 35 days in 2018 and 2019, and its total effect on GDP was drum roll please.
0.4% for an entire month, one 12th of the year. Mind you. Yeah. How is something shaved that little off when it's 25% of the economy, like 23 whatever, 23% of the economy?
Luke Tatum: Well, I mean, there's the difference between essential and non-essential, right? I mean, and then there's the back pay when people come back. I mean, we talked about that, and so it's like, did this actually do anything?
I mean, yes, but also kind of no, if you abstract enough.
Nicky P: So they say, in 2013, the, you know, coming back from the. Last big downturn, the GDP was reduced by two, two to 6 billion in the fourth quarter and led to 120,000 fewer private sector jobs the following month. The problem is that these are all short-term losses.
And they're always recouped by the fact that, well the government's not gonna just not pay people, so it goes back and gives the money out anyway. So shutdown does never does even what it's supposed to do. Like those people will always still get their money.
Luke Tatum: Yeah. And you know, I hate to bring up COVID again.
I'm sorry to cut you off Nick, but like. We had, you know, catastrophic loss of jobs, right? With COVID, is it because places were forced to be closed? Obviously a completely logical consequence, and then they have the audacity to go up on stage and front of these pulpits or what have you, and run victory laps when the jobs numbers look better after the shutdowns are over.
Like, look at all the jobs we added to the economy. I mean, what are we doing here? You know, again, it's just like if you make people lose their jobs,
Nicky P: It's easy to make number go up when you make the lowest number ever. Yeah,
Shovels and Spoons [14:00]
Luke Tatum: Right. What are, I mean, it's the, famous Milton Friedman quote, right? He goes to China and he sees all these people working with shovels to build that dam in China, and they're bragging about their unemployment numbers, and he is like, well, hey, you could have.
You know, 0% unemployment forever if you just gave everyone spoons, right? Because they'll never finish the job will never be done. So like, wow. So impressive. You have manual laborers with shovels, you know, like in the west you would have, you know, actual heavy equipment building the dam and it might actually get finished.
So. What are we doing again?
Nicky P: Let's teach a little micro lesson here, folks. This is, this is called Why You Have Humans Instead of AI to make little mo notes like this. I have, one of the little pieces of information I looked up before the podcast on this. Democrats demand any healthcare agreement, be ironclad and in legislation citing a lack of trust with Republicans have consistently tried to undermine bipartisan agreements.
This is on transparency now, if I remember correctly, when Obamacare was first passed. These are also the. You've gotta pass it to see what's in it. People.
Luke Tatum: That's Pelosi, right?
One of the best, most quotable moments in history and health.
Rob Brayton: Healthcare's gotten so much more affordable since then, too. Right?
Luke Tatum: Oh, thank you. Yeah, Rob. I just love it. I love my affordable healthcare. Yeah.
Shutdowns Since 1977 [15:00]
Nicky P: A couple other little facts I thought entertaining in here since 1977, the government has failed to meet funding deadlines 20 times with shutdowns averaging.
Eight days and legs.
Rob Brayton: I was just looking at that point, Nick, and I think something that we need to keep in mind considering we have all that time. Prior to 1977, the government never shut down before, so, and everything seemed to be okay, so there was no shutdown prior to then. You know. Hmm. And
Luke Tatum: When did we go off the gold standard again?
Hmm.
Rob Brayton: 1971. Hmm.
Nicky P: So another little, this one's probably my favorite, point that I've seen over here, and it's that. So the historically speaking, no, mind you, the S&P 500 has actually risen 4.4% on average during shutdowns. So somehow the stock market seems to, seems to work, seems to work better. Like I'm kind of thinking, man, I need to go put my shit in an index fund right now and just see what happens.
One of the other points. How is this different, Rob, we were talking about this a little bit before. How is this particular, shutdown different than ones in the past? Has people real scared about?
Trump's Permanent Cuts [17:00]
Rob Brayton: Well, I think the things that we've seen, or at least some of the rhetoric that's been coming out has been that, you know, Trump has threatened to actually make some of it permanent and.
It depends upon which side of line you fall on here, but generally speaking, like if we actually made some of the stuff permanent, would it really be that bad? And again, this is not speaking to somebody personally impacted, but thinking for the quote unquote greater good of our country, meaning that the we would shrink, actually shrink the size of the government.
That's not a bad thing. Shrinking the size of the government actually benefits everybody that lives in this country. It just doesn't feel like it in the short term, and I think that's the thing that most people are tend to be afraid of because all this fear gets spread that, oh, well, this is gonna go away, that's gonna go away, and all this other stuff that just doesn't end up happening.
The same way that, or the way that a lot of people make it seem.
Living Off a Government Check [18:00]
Nicky P: I'm gonna actually argue something a little bit different here, Rob. There are those 23% of the population that weren't happy to collect a government paycheck. That's all they all, they need to aspire to get a little overpaid to do not a real job.
But the bottom line is there is that part of our population that does exist. People that are more than happy to live off the dole and, you know, not really, not really try for any more than that. 'cause you know, why do I need to, now I don't think that's personally any way to live, but, you know, we are trying in some ways to.
You know, extrapolate our values to perhaps more of the world than I is realistic when, you know, we do make suggestions that, you know, they're better off, you know, they probably are materially better off, but, you know, however their brain works, doesn't interpret the same values that you or I have.
And so they're, you know, not getting the same thing out of it, sadly.
Rob Brayton: Yeah. I, the way I look at it in some ways is that. What we have, this group or this portion of people that are kind of living, you know, like you've mentioned, living off the dole so to speak. But if we think about the opportunity cost of that, what, how do we not know that one of those individuals, had they not been inspired or challenged, couldn't be the next Elon Musk couldn't be the next person to bring something forward, right?
Like that's the part that is, you know, crazy to me that a lot of people aren't thinking about.
Nicky P: They all could be and we can do what we can to help give people a hand up. But you know, the same people, everything that we're gonna take from this point on is completely useless for, because. It requires thinking and planning and hard work.
And more than anything, it requires responsibility, which is the last thing people like that want to take for themselves. And this go. What's the positive for all this, you know, what are the, what are the good things for people? I mean, what's funny is the list that I asked to print out when I was saying from an a Austrian, libertarian, infinite banking practitioner perspective, what are the key positives to focus on?
I really thought the AI was gonna struggle. I'm gonna be honest. I thought it was gonna give me a couple things that made no sense. Instead, I get government dysfunction as validation. Opportunity in chaos, self-reliance, vindication, regulatory paralysis, as you said, exposing the dependency that people have on here, and a permanent reduction possibility.
So like in all of this, like mal-investment exposures, another one that comes up here. Moral hazard, like time preference lesson that everyone needs to learn. I, it's just. I was frankly like, wow, it's did a pretty good job of summing up my beliefs and all this stuff works.
A Better Way to Help People [21:00]
Luke Tatum: No, I dig it. I dig it. But, you know, the, you know, if somehow you're listening to this particular section of this particular podcast and you are a person who, you know, the, your entire living comes from a government paycheck, you know, look, this is just an invitation.
To look at things from a different angle and, you know, notori, government jobs are notoriously hard to get fired from, right? You get kind of in there and you just kind of can coast in a lot of times, you know, especially city governments, things like that. You just kind of, you just kind of good to go if you land the job and you can climb that ladder, however slowly that system works wherever you're at.
But you know, there's so much more. Greener grass, so to speak, on the other side out there. And it's not to say that every private sector job is objectively the most efficient thing ever. I mean, there's plenty of waste in the private sector. The thing about the private sector is that it actually discovers.
Dead end jobs, things that aren't helping people. And it reallocates and it adapts and changes right? To bring more value to more people. And I mean, if you like to help people, if you're in the government, 'cause your heart is in it, you know, and you wanna benefit your local community or what have you, great.
There's an even better way to do that. And it's to get involved in a private sector job, what skills you have. Put those to direct use, helping paying customers,
Nicky P: Overpaying to have a private company pave your roads, go get paid exceptionally well by that private company to pave those roads yourself.
Luke Tatum: That's right. Run a road. I mean, you know, local governments, pay contractors to actually build the roads, you know, like go, go do that.
Nicky P: So, I'm kidding. This side, gentlemen. What else do we got to say on this, or, I mean, is it should be pretty obvious where our perspective is and what we look at as the, what are the negatives? I didn't hear any negatives personally.
Luke Tatum: Look, I mean, you know, we don't wanna beat you over the head with our beliefs or what have you, but, I think that's all we've done this episode and that, you know, it's just how it's gonna be sometimes.
Rob, what do I, do you have any final thoughts?
Insulating Your Own Finances [23:00]
Rob Brayton: You know, I would say. If you are impacted or this is something that impacts people, there are ways to help insulate yourself against it. And you can do that by structuring your personal finances, you know, financial scenario in a way that help, helps provide that insulation, helps provide.
You know, against some of those impacts. And I would argue that that's important not only in the public sector, but also the private sector, because it happens and there's ways to insure yourself, to structure yourself so that those things don't impact you as much and you can make it through and not have to give everything up or, you know, stop the compounding on.
You know, your plans like that stuff doesn't have to happen if you think about things differently. And that's a lot about what we do, of course. But, yeah, I would say like that's one aspect of the ways that you can think about things differently in these situations to help protect yourself, protect your family on a more micro scale that isn't reliant on all these macro situations that are occurring that.
You know, frankly, you or I can't just jump out and fix. So just the, some, something else to consider there.
Luke Tatum: Yeah, and I mean, I have friends that get paid by the government. You know, I have, I have friends that are on the DC Beltway, you know, and stuff like that. And it's, they agree with me though, I should say that they're libertarians too.
It's not, it's not like they don't see, you know, what's going on. And so, it is. It is a good opportunity for them to do what they're doing. You know, they don't control who the president is. They don't control who is in Congress any more than anybody else. And so it's what do you do within the system that you currently have?
And that's where we can really help. I, you know, you and I, the whole Perfect Spiral Capital team, you know, we're here to navigate those things with you. And you don't, you don't have to just clock in, clock out and, and try to ignore the fact. That things like this can come up on the horizon, so, Nick, you got anything else?
Nicky P: Well, what I've got is why don't you tell these people what the first step is to you helping them guide and navigate those waters?
Outro and Free Toolkit [26:00]
Luke Tatum: Hey. You bet. You bet. Yeah. So thanks so much for joining us on another episode of the Between The Lies Podcast. If you're interested in all this, if you watch this whole episode, then you're definitely interested in the future of money, probably your money, and we can help with that.
So we have a free toolkit. You'll get lots and lots of freebies, including a copy of our book, and that's perfectspiralcapital.com/podcast. So be sure to check that out.
