Is the Federal Reserve's dual mandate working? By its own job description, keeping prices stable and employment high, Rob Brayton says the Fed has failed the people who use the dollar: it hasn't protected the currency and it hasn't kept inflation in check. In Episode 004, Nicky P, Luke Tatum and Rob look at Jerome Powell's record, what a 2% inflation target costs you every year, how today's rates compare to the Volcker years, and why a saver with capital ready can treat a downturn as an opening.
“They’ve not protected the currency. They’ve not kept inflation in check.”
Jerome Powell is getting pressure from every direction. The White House wants lower rates, inflation is still running above target, and people paying more for groceries don't trust the official numbers. This episode takes the dual mandate apart in plain terms and asks a simple question: if the Fed's job is stable prices and full employment, how is it doing?
What We Covered
Two goals that pull against each other. Rob lays out the dual mandate. To slow inflation, the Fed raises interest rates. Higher rates also tend to push unemployment up. Every move toward one goal costs something on the other, and Powell has been making those calls with the President criticizing him in public.
What a 2% target means for your money. Nicky puts it bluntly: a 2% inflation target means the plan is for your money to lose 2% of its buying power every year. Luke adds that the number gets repeated as if it were harmless, while anyone buying ground beef knows prices are climbing faster than that. For the longer version of monetary inflation versus reported prices, go back to Episode 003.
Independent, and appointed by the President. The Federal Reserve is described as independent from the government, and Luke notes it's technically a private entity. So he asks how many private companies have their chairman picked by the President of the United States. Coca-Cola doesn't.
“It’s basically free to pay for something over time, which is inversion of basic economic law.”
Powell's record next to Volcker's. Rob gives Powell some credit for raising rates off zero without wrecking the economy. But at roughly 4.5%, rates are still well above the roughly 3% the Fed calls neutral, which is where the White House pressure comes from. Luke reads the history from a rate table: under Paul Volcker the federal funds rate averaged 11.2% in 1979 and 13.35% the next year, with a brief spike around 19% in 1981. After 2008 it dropped to 0.16% under Ben Bernanke and 0.09% under Janet Yellen, which made borrowing close to free.
Better signals than CPI. Luke would rather watch the savings rate and credit card delinquencies than CPI, a statistic whose definition can be changed when the result isn't flattering. His comparison is the Soviet Union, where academics praised economic figures that were easy to produce when the state made up the statistics.
Tariffs stacked on the income tax. Rob says a lot of Wall Street money is positioning for a flat or falling market, which points to higher unemployment. Before the income tax, tariffs funded the federal government. Stacking tariffs on top of an income tax, he says, is not a recipe for success, and the consumer pays for all of it.
“The person who gets to buy that is the person who is well capitalized, who has saved and has money on the sidelines that’s ready to go.”
Bad compared to what? Nicky offers some perspective: the US may be the kid with a broken arm, but most other economies have two broken legs. Rob agrees, then explains why he measures against what the economy could be instead of what everyone else is doing. Nicky's picture: we can see the Ferrari, and we're watching a jalopy.
Key Takeaway
Uncertain times always produce sellers, and the buyer who wins is the one who already has capital set aside and doesn't need a bank's approval. Luke's example is being able to offer $600,000 for a storage facility and close in two weeks. He and Rob build that kind of capital in a place they control, properly designed whole life insurance with contractually guaranteed cash value growth, so a downturn becomes an opportunity instead of a threat.
Key Moments
[1:00] The Fed's Dual Mandate, Explained
[3:00] What a 2% Inflation Target Really Means
[5:00] Is the Fed Really Independent?
[9:00] Grading Powell's Record
[11:00] Powell vs. Volcker: The Rate History
[14:00] Manipulated Statistics and the Post-Truth Era
[18:00] Jobs, Tariffs and the Income Tax
[21:00] Bad Compared to What?
[24:00] Opportunity in Uncertain Times
“Economic downturns create opportunities. If you have the capital in those opportunity arenas, now you’re able to scoop stuff up.”
Related Episodes
Episode 003: Global Inflation Falls Everywhere But America: When Money Becomes Worthless
Episode 008: What Does a Fed Rate Cut Mean for You? Easy Money and Who Benefits First
Episode 045: The Fed's $41 Trillion Problem: Why the White House Stopped Showing the Numbers
Want the full conversation, including Luke's walk through the Volcker-era rate table? Listen to the full episode and grab the free toolkit at PerfectSpiralCapital.com/podcast.
FAQ
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Congress gave the Federal Reserve two goals: stable prices and maximum employment. Its main tool is interest rates. Raising rates tends to slow inflation but can push unemployment up, so the two goals often pull against each other. In Episode 004, Rob Brayton explains why that puts any Fed chair, including Jerome Powell, in a bind.
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It means the Fed's goal is for prices to rise about 2% a year, which is the same as your dollars losing about 2% of their buying power every year. Over 20 years at that pace, a dollar buys about a third less. As Nicky P puts it on the show, 2% is how much of your wealth the plan expects to take each year.
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Under Paul Volcker, Fed chair from 1979 to 1987, the federal funds rate averaged 11.2% in 1979, 13.35% in 1980 and about 16.4% in 1981, with a brief spike near 19%. After the 2008 crisis it averaged 0.16% in 2009 and fell as low as 0.09% under Janet Yellen. When this episode was recorded in August 2025, it was around 4.5%.
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Luke Tatum and Rob Brayton's answer is to build a pool of capital you control before you need it. When people get spooked, they sell, and the buyer who wins is the one with money ready who doesn't need a bank's approval. Perfect Spiral Capital helps people build that capital with properly designed whole life insurance, a savings tool with contractually guaranteed cash value growth.
Show full transcript
Between The Lies: Episode 004 Transcript
Nicky P: Out of all the characters in control of our financial destiny, Jerome Powell may be leaving one of the most embattled legacies. Today we're gonna get deep into the Fed and the data it uses in its dual mandate. Welcome to the Between The Lies Podcast, your weekly lesson on how to approach an uncertain world with positivity and balance.
I'm Nicky P here with my good friends and money brains. Luke Tatum, Rob Brayton from Perfect Spiral Capital. Gentlemen, How are we doing?
Luke Tatum: Doing well, doing very well. Thank you.
Powell, Trump and the Data [0:00]
Nicky P: So we got a fun one today we're talking about Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve and Trump firing people 'cause he's not getting the data that he wants.
And to my heart, it's like, well, at least it's fun that they're admitting the numbers mean nothing. And if you don't like the ones you get, you just find somebody who will give you the numbers that you want.
Rob Brayton: I mean, that's been kind of happening for a long time, hasn't it?
Nicky P: Well, they're not usually so brazen about it, I feel like Is the new thing?
Rob Brayton: Well, yeah. I mean, this time it's pretty blatant, right? At least. At least they're honest about it. But yeah, in the past it's in different areas. It's certainly been. A change over time, you know, inflation. CPI,
Luke Tatum: Yeah. If there's one thing Trump does not have, it's a filter, right? So he just kind of off the cuff, I mean, you know, we've seen some interesting comments lately about all kinds of things, but
Nicky P: For good or bad, frankly, you know, sometimes I love it about him.
Sometimes I hate it about him, but, so today's article, why don't you gimme kind of like. The broad strokes for the people out there, what's going on?
The Fed's Dual Mandate, Explained [1:00]
Rob Brayton: Well, I know one of the main articles we were looking at was just kind of the, sort of the quandary that Powell has been in as part of the Fed's dual mandate.
And for those who are not aware of what that is, the Fed's been given two mandates and one is to manage interest rates and the other is to manage unemployment. And those two things, while on the surface seem like. Pretty straightforward things to manage do actually cause counterintuitive impacts to one another depending upon how they're used and leveraged.
And, by managing interest rates, what I meant to say is the inflation is how well they manage that inflation aspect. So the. You sort of manage the inflation, by leveraging what we charge for interest. And one of the, you know, one of the things that we've observed over the last, what, you know.
Since Trump's been back in office, has been the trying to manage inflation and trying to bring that in into a scope that most people feel can be at least tolerated, but their target is generally 2%. While I mean, clearly. We're not doing well on that front. And, in order to help try to bring that inflation down, the only way to really do that is to increase interest rates.
Well, when you increase the interest rates, that also tends to increase the unemployment. So, it's this counterintuitive balance that they're trying to manage and it just. You, he's getting a ton of pressure from the president and a lot of other things on interest rates because it's impacting the economy.
So I mean it, we could go anywhere from there. Right. But Luke, I'd like to hear your take on it too, because I mean, you're familiar with it. You understand that there's these two things that tend to compete against one another. What are, what are your thoughts?
What a 2% Inflation Target Really Means [3:00]
Nicky P: I wanna interject real quick because you mentioned something in there, and most Americans, I don't know if they realize this or what it really means, but you say in there that there's that 2% that they, 2% inflation that they want.
And when I hear that, to me, what I hear is they want to man, they want to, you know, manage. How much of my money they steal at 2%, like 2% of my wealth is their goal to take every year. We don't want to take any less, 'cause, you know, we need to take it, but we don't necessarily want to take more, or at least don't want you to see us taking more in the numbers.
Rob Brayton: Well, I mean that's, that kind of goes back to what we were talking about with the numbers fluctuating all the time. But go ahead, Luke.
Luke Tatum: Yeah, I mean, last episode we kind of talked about monetary inflation versus the reported increase of prices and some of those things. So definitely go back to episode three of this podcast if you want a more complete breakdown of that.
But you know, it is, it is kind of a slap in the face, right? For the person living in the United States, the US citizen who has to exist under the monetary regime that we do, for them to say. With a straight face. To you over and over and over again. Oh yeah. It's just 2%. It's just the 2% inflation target.
Okay. And the expectation is that you don't know what that means and you don't understand all the complicated mechanics behind that. And oh, you know, we have these wise stewards of the economy that are nonpartisan and detached from all the happenings in the world, and they're the ones that are gonna wisely choose the right interest rate so that we can, you know,
Nicky P: Well, they're not part of the government.
Right.
Is the Fed Really Independent? [5:00]
Luke Tatum: Well, right. I mean, that is what we are told. Okay. And technically speaking, they're a private entity. You know, the Federal Reserve is a private entity. But are they, I mean, tell me how many other companies that are private companies have their chairman appointed by the president of the United States?
It's a little weird. I mean, I don't know. Does Coca-Cola Corporation get appointed? I mean, the. The board, you know, of Coca-Cola, does it get appointed by the president or approved by Congress or anything like that? No.
Nicky P: No. They all have to pay for their lobbyist seats.
Luke Tatum: That's right. Because they don't have to.
They don't, they don't get to control the money.
Rob Brayton: Well, Intel might get there soon, but. That's a different topic.
Luke Tatum: Yeah, that's a whole, that's a whole episode. But no, I mean, my initial take on this is just, you know, the complete folly. You know, it always goes back to that Milton Friedman quote. You know, the curious task of economics is to educate men on how little they understand about what they imagine they can design. [Editor's note: This line is Friedrich Hayek's, from The Fatal Conceit, not Milton Friedman's.] Right? And so. We all pretend that we have these magical people that have more knowledge than you or I lowly plebs. And they can, they can know, they just know how to fix the economy. They work on it like it's some kind of a mechanical thing, and you just have to fine tune and, and play with it, and it's gonna make everything great.
And it doesn't, and everybody knows that inflation is higher than what's reported. You know, you go try to buy meat, beef, especially at the grocery store, you, it's not 2% inflation. Okay. Once upon a time, my wife and I wouldn't buy like ground beef unless it was under a dollar a pound. You know, good luck finding that.
You know, so Yeah, you can't
Rob Brayton: Touch that anymore.
Nicky P: Well, so we say this, and I'm amused in that since the beginning, Trump has, obviously, he's talked a big game about economics, but the delivery and like to my mind, what we should. To those who aren't aware, we've had artificially low interest rates for what, since the nineties, essentially the nineties up through, basically COVID.
Luke Tatum: I have the numbers if we wanna get into it, Nick. So like, I pulled, I pulled all that,
Nicky P: If not the nineties, definitely since the two thousands. We've had basically 0% interest rate, which, what is, what do we call that? Where we come from, we call it easy money. We call it cheap money. We call it money that you're not paying for.
And the idea is, it means it keeps your economy moving. 'cause yeah, you can spend money you don't have easily and give away money you don't have easily. So since the Fed is involved in interest rates and how quickly that money does move you ideally want to slow things down. And keep that money from moving around too quickly and going places where it's gonna be malinvested is what we'd say.
So I opened this up talking about how embattled the legacy of Powell's gonna be, because you know, one thing Powell actually has been pretty good on is we actually do have a base. You look, rate right now, that's not zero and like, and despite all of the pressures from say, Trump to make it look pretty, make the economy go up, make it go boom, he has fought pretty hard to creep it up without completely destroying things.
And I mean, despite what we look around, it looks like it could be a lot worse to me than what we've actually had, but. What do you, well, how do you think, yourselves, Powell has done at the job, given the stupid mandate and trying to control what it controls?
Grading Powell's Record [9:00]
Rob Brayton: I mean, I can jump in first. I guess if you think about his mandate, right?
I would say he really hasn't done that bad of a job. Kinda like what you alluded to Nick, in that he's been able to increase rates without dramatically impacting the economy, which isn't that bad of a thing. All said and done. The, I think the challenge that we're seeing, and I think a lot where Trump's really been big on him, is that he's.
That rate is still far past what they consider neutral, and that that neutral target is like 3% for interest rates. And there are what, four and a half, give or take, somewhere in there. So that being said, I think that's where a lot of the pressure from the executive branch is coming from.
But when we think about. The overall job in terms of objectives speak, you know, from the average person's perspective. I mean, the Fed's arguably failed, right from the, you know, if you look at the data from when they were implemented to today, they have utterly failed in their, they objective. It is, they've not protected the currency.
They've not kept inflation in check. I mean, it's horrible. But
Nicky P: Well, as you're telling me this, you're saying 3%. Okay, so their goal is 3%. There we go with that. But they had it at two decades. At 0%. So like if it's supposed to be 3%, like you don't feel like you gotta swing the other way, and when you say 3% is considered like normal, Luke, I am not sure if you have the numbers in front of you, but like from the seventies all the way through the nineties, is that even remotely what we would classify as even average for those years?
Powell vs. Volcker: The Rate History [11:00]
Luke Tatum: Well, no, I mean, no. Gosh, it's so silly because, and so I'll read from the article, the Reuters article that we have here. So it says, Powell in his 2022 speech channeled the late Fed chair Paul Volcker in pledging to stamp out inflation, whatever the cost to jobs and growth. And so, you know, we're.
Talking about how he's channeling Paul Volcker. Okay. That is such a silly thing to say. I mean, it's just a completely ridiculous thing to say. If you look at the years that Volcker was the Fed chair, which is 79 through, 86, then 79, the interest rate, you know, the federal funds rate, which other rates are kind of based on 11.2%, right?
The next year. 13.35%. It went all the way up. It went all the way up to basically 20%, I believe, in 81. In 81. I guess the rate on this table that I have is 16.38%, but there was a brief spike at one point in that year where it was at like 19.1% or something like that. And so I was gonna say I knew it hit at least 17.
Right. And, and so like. Okay, you go to get a mortgage. Your mortgage isn't the Fed funds rate. Your mortgage is, you know, 21% or whatever. And so that was the cost of financing. And you think, I mean, you look at a mortgage amortization calculator or something like that right now at like a 6.5% mortgage.
You're like, wow, I have to pay a lot of money to the bank. Right? Okay. But that's nothing. That's absolutely nothing. If that was the mortgage rate, imagine what a credit card rate would be. You know, that kind of stuff. And so what is the cost of buying something with money you don't have? That's what the question is, right?
What is the, what is the rate? That the general population, what an interest rate is supposed to be, is a reflection of the general attitude of the population. Are they more in favor of saving money? Are they feeling more risk averse or are they feeling more, you know, let's say elated. They want to go out and, and you know, is it, is it a growth mindset?
It's okay, we'll finance it, that kind of thing. And so. The fund, the savings rate, those kind of numbers, that's what's scary. You know, the number of credit card delinquencies, that's what's scary when you talk about stuff like this. And that, to me gives a much more clear indicator of where the economy's at than, you know, oh, did we hit 3% inflation according to CPI.
Manipulated Statistics and the Post-Truth Era [14:00]
Luke Tatum: Which is a manipulated statistic, and they'll change the definition if it doesn't work out in their favor. Right? Like, you know, it's just, there's that whole thing about how the Soviet Union, you have all these numbers, like every academic. During like the USSR, right? Every academic was like, oh my gosh, Russia has the most amazing economic figures.
Their GDP is crazy. It's so amazing. They just couldn't stop gushing over the economic miracle of the USSR. Well, it's really easy to have insanely awesome numbers. If you make up all the statistics, if you make up everything, if you've practically abolished prices and you're just saying, well, yeah, it's great because we say it's great, right?
And so that's the kind of era that I worry that we are entering into in the United States sometimes is. Does any of this even mean anything? Can we revise the definitions enough times to where it just isn't meaningful anymore? Well, that post-truth era that we've been told so much about. Right, right.
Exactly. And so, you know, Volcker, to kind of cap up that point off, he did bring interest rates back down, you know, but the lowest that it was when he was. Chair of the Fed was 6.29% for the federal funds rate. You know, and to your point, 2009, Ben Bernanke, the federal funds rate was 0.16, right? It went down to 0.09.
Under Janet Yellen, you know, like stuff like that. And so that is not, I mean, it's hilarious. It's basically zero. It's basically free to pay for something over time, which is inversion of basic economic law. You know,
MMT, the Austrian School and Incentives [16:00]
Nicky P: It reminds me a lot of MMT, and I don't know how much you've actually read on MMT and how much you understand the theory and.
The thing that it reminds me is that like if you take them at their word and what they actually recommend at like the policy level there, it's probably not the most insane theory. It does deal with some practicalities. The problem is that like there's the movement both ways. And they never wanna follow their policy when it tells that.
Like when you're in the good times, they just wanna keep treating it like it's bad times. Like they, and it seems like the Fed operates at the same way. It's like, well, we wanna do what's, you know, good for us in good times. And then still it's, you know, what's that same policy when it's not good for us?
Like you can't. You know, I come from the Austrian School of Economics and so much that is, it's following incentives and they kind of ignore the incentives when it's convenient for them. Is how it seems to work out in both of these situations. It's like, it's all well and good to say you're gonna do this when it's bad, but then you don't, you just continue using the same policy that you would've when it was good.
Luke Tatum: I don't wanna get into a takedown of MMT or anything like that, you know, that's. That I think beyond the scope today, but, you know, it might be fun to do at some point. But you know, the, yes, you're absolutely right on that. And I mean, we're just living under a lot of broken ideas, you know, failed policy ideas, failed concepts that you, it sounds good in theory.
Then when it doesn't work out, you just go, well, it sounded good in theory and you just keep doing it, you know? And so it's a real rough spot to be in. But, Rob, I mean, we talked before, we went on air a little bit about the jobs numbers and kind of how that plays into this a little bit more. I mean, what do you think, I guess, I guess my question is what do you think is gonna happen?
Because I sometimes feel like you know, a lot more than me on topics like this. So what do you think is happening with jobs and. Where do you think we might go from here?
Jobs, Tariffs and the Income Tax [18:00]
Rob Brayton: I mean, it's interesting, right? I, there's a couple of things that I read leading up to this as well that seem to indicate a lot of the.
Sort of smart money on Wall Street is anticipating that we're gonna kind of flat line and, or have some, somewhat of a decline yet this year. And that's where a lot of the smart money seems to be heading because you see, and I use smart money loosely, but I do see that a lot of them are moving in a more.
Conservative fashion with where they're moving funds, how they're sort of planning for potential downturn. So I do see that as a. As a possible direction, meaning that the chances of unemployment to go higher are probably there. Especially because when you think about the broader scale, economic impacts of tariffs, and, you know, this is obviously a direction that the president's decided to move in without having the full support of Congress to at the same time.
Unload the tax burden from the people. You're going to have an increase in pricing, plain and simple, like, and, and inflation will go up. If we think back to when tariffs worked prior to the implementation of the income tax. The tariffs worked fine to a degree, and I somewhat argue against that.
That's fair. We're not gonna get into that discussion today, but that is the general way on how our, how our country made money to support the government. We had roads, we had hospitals, we had all this stuff. We had a military all prior to the income tax. The problem is now we're adding income tax and tariffs at the same time.
That's not a good recipe for success. And you can kick that can down the road all you want. But if you actually are increasing those tariffs and they're actually gonna go into play without doing something on the taxation side, it's going to cause a problem for the average person, the you and me level.
Right? And so I see that as not only does that impact us because the consumer pays for everything. That means it's gonna impact business, it's gonna impact corporations. So we're gonna see those knock on effects as a result of those things. You know, with that stuff going into play, unless something major is done and on top of it, we're still gonna have our currency deflating in value every, you know, every year.
And because there's nothing being done to correct that either. So it, I'm not trying to be out dire 'cause that's not the point of our podcast, right? It's to provide people hope. Well, we have options that help with that, right? That's a lot of what we do here. But we, when we look at the overall outlook, regardless of where somebody falls on the political spectrum, it just, it does not look the best for us unless somebody's willing to commit to major changes and.
That someone needs to either be Congress, it needs to be the Fed, needs to be the president or all of them together, but somebody has to step up and wear the pants and get the job done. 'cause otherwise it's not gonna happen.
Luke Tatum: What are you thinking? Thomas Massie next president. Putting you on the spot. I mean,
Rob Brayton: That would be a step in the right direction, I guess, but doesn't mean they would fix it.
Right.
Bad Compared to What? [21:00]
Nicky P: Without getting too political, like the fantasy that Thomas Massie would ever get anywhere near the president's presidency. Yeah, he's, yeah. But to I, to pull this back into the more realistic realm while we use it, as Rob said, oh, it looks pretty dire. I would argue that like, yeah, it looks pretty dire until you look at the state of every other nation's economy right now.
And then our economy looks a whole lot better. Like, yeah, sure, it's, it maybe like the kid with only with a broken arm, but like when the other country's all got two broken legs, you know, it's pretty good spot to be in and, and the bigger issues that they see, it's not like what is the. Inflation.
The way that we prop, we prop things up and utilize it is that it causes malinvestment. That's the word that we use all the time. And while it means, yes, it basically means money's going to stupid things as opposed to the intelligent things that you would like. So we're probably not gonna invent faster than light travel anytime soon, but someone's going to be getting that money and doing something with it that may be marginally useful.
So like there's gonna be some jobs and never go away because people are always gonna have needs. So it's like, to me the things can only look so bad. I think most of the, like jobs talk always boils down to fearmongering because. There's always, I always tell people like, you, as bad as you think the economy, you think AI's gonna steal your job.
Well eventually the only thing people are gonna have is a need to fill time. And so you're gonna get a job as somebody's cuddle buddy or you're gonna be designing rollercoasters because there's always going to be a need. Need does not go away because money and policy are screwed up. Certainly at like, certainly at the macro level.
Rob Brayton: No, Nick, I think you bring up a. I was gonna say, I think you bring up a really interesting point though, of what's the reference point and if we compare ourselves to the rest of the world, yet you're right. Like we are in a good position. Like we look a lot better. I think when I speak about these terms, I look at it as what's, what could it be and or should it be?
And that's my reference point. And I don't like to bend from that. 'cause you have to have a point of reference. Well, you know, so that's where I'm coming from.
Nicky P: Well in our mind's eye, in our mind's eye, we're seeing the Ferrari that the economy could be, but we're having to watch it be a jalopy Maybe.
Maybe at this point it might even feel more like a horse drawn carriage moving our economy along, but we know how good it could be. So since we're here, we're focused on positivity, what positive takeaways do you gentlemen have for us today?
Opportunity in Uncertain Times [24:00]
Luke Tatum: Yeah. You know, I'll go first here, Rob. I think that despite all of this, we still have some excellent tools at our disposal where we can build our own, kind of what I'm gonna call a banking system, not technically speaking a banking system, but.
You know, I'm not gonna go start my own Bank of America, but we can build our own place to warehouse and grow our wealth in a very, very tax favorable environment. And we can deploy that when opportunities present themselves. 'cause the thing about economic turmoil, jobs, numbers fluctuating, the inflation rate fluctuating, all these things.
The thing about uncertain times, I almost hate to say that after COVID, but the thing about uncertain times is. There are always opportunities, right? When there's a buyer, there's also a seller and vice versa, and so all the time if somebody is spooked by the jobs numbers and they wanna get outta some business.
They wanna sell their stock or whatever. That means that you have a possibility to buy that. And the person who gets to buy that is the person who is well capitalized, who has saved and has money on the sidelines that's ready to go. They don't have to go ask the bank for a loan, right? They get to just get it.
Hey, you know what? That looks great. I'd love to buy that storage unit facility from you. For $600,000, I can close in two weeks or whatever. And so if you're in that position. Deals done. You're the winner. You're in a much better footing. Buy yourself some inflation. You know, recession resistant investments.
There are plenty of things you could diversify into other than just stocks, right? Because when people get spooked, the stock market might crash. But the stuff that we do, which is life insurance, the most profitable years that these life insurance companies have ever had in a lot of cases is 2008.
Which is a horrible year. I mean, if you think, oh, it's the worst economic year that we've all lived through. It's 2008, right? Well, depends on what industry you're in. And so I always look at this as a cool thing. I've had a wonderful time with higher, interest rates. You know, it's been great for me and a lot of people are just.
They feel terrible about it, you know, oh, my mortgage is gonna be more expensive when I move. Oh, my car payment's so expensive. All these things. Well, I'm not going to the bank to seek financing for things. So I get a little bit of a different set of playing rules, you know, it makes me feel pretty good.
And so I'm, I'll be a little sad if interest rates get cut and I'm. Not hesitating to say that on camera. So, you know, people can beat me up in the comments or whatever. But no, I feel great, about that. I have felt great about it and I always know that there's lots of opportunity on the horizon, so, it just speaks to saving and being patient.
Capital Attracts Opportunities [28:00]
Rob Brayton: Yeah, I like what you said there, Luke, and it just brings me back to a big. Part of what we do is provide hope for people in that we, what we do is provide that proper level of foundation and we create, if we kind of go into change our mindset about money and we have a great environment, control the environment in which we put our money into that is contractually guaranteed to go one way.
It's only going to build up the level of capital that we want to have in our lifetimes. That puts us in the position to be able to do exactly what you were talking about. It creates opportunities. Capital attracts opportunities. Plain and simple. Many of the people that I listen to have said that many times and you just see it happen.
So. It. And that's a big part of what we do is help people create this pool of capital that they can leverage, they can use to be able to go do all the stuff that they need to. Economic downturns. And as much as we don't like to see them, economic downturns create opportunities. If you have the capital in those opportunity arenas, now you're able to scoop stuff up.
That is dramatically going to outpace inflation. It's dramatically gonna outpace the market. We're in a position to see people succeed at levels that maybe they never thought possible. And, and I, that's one of the things that I love about what we do is helping to put people into the, into those positions by creating the right foundation for their money to be and grow.
And then allow them to live their life in a way that maybe was never thought possible by them or previous generations. So it's a great, great thing that we do there.
Nicky P: So you're both seeing a downturn, less as a downturn and more as a point of arbitrage?
Rob Brayton: Yeah, it could be absolutely.
Nicky P: Right on. Well, we are at that point, gentlemen.
So Luke, why don't you take us out and
Outro and Free Toolkit [30:00]
Luke Tatum: Yeah, you bet. So again, as always, thanks so much for joining us for the Between The Lies Podcast. This week's episode has been a lot of fun. If you watch this full episode, you are clearly interested in the future of money. So we've got a free toolkit that you can use to help demystify the future of your money.
Head on over to perfectspiralcapital.com/podcast. And you will click the link there. Get free access to a wonderful toolkit with lots of cool stuff. Download that today. Let us know what you think. We'll see you on the next episode.
